Moving beyond the idea that a strong narrative alone guarantees coverage, the conversation explores how news cycles actually function — from daily editorial rhythms to political shifts, breaking news, seasonal patterns, and internal newsroom pressures.
Through real examples of stories released at exactly the right moment — and others derailed by poor timing — the guests unpack how to read the media environment, when to hold back, when to move fast, and how to judge whether the window is open or already closing.
It’s a practical discussion about the invisible forces that shape coverage and why even the strongest story can fail if the timing is wrong.
Transcript:
Jack Murray 00:00
Welcome to Inside media relations. The podcast for PR people serious about getting their story
covered, we will examine why a story lands or disappears into thin air. I will speak with PR
professionals and communications leaders who practice Media Relations every day to
understand what actually works and why. In this episode, we would examine why timing is
everything when it comes to getting your story covered,
Jack Murray 00:26
what role does timing really play in whether a story gains traction or gets completely lost? Is a
strong narrative enough, or does the news cycle ultimately decide its fate to take on this
journey? I'm joined by two of my favorite PR people, Ashlyn Burke is an account manager with
the PR agency. We the People, and Catherine romahani is a spokesperson for Trinity College
Dublin. Let's get inside media relations. Ashlyn, I'm going to start with you today. Tell me about
a time when timing made the difference between a story getting covered or completely
disappearing,
Aislinn 01:01
singing about that quite a bit, and I'm kind of grateful for the clients that I have that sometimes
the strength of the story will always carry. I've had clients who have said, Oh, it's four o'clock
on a Wednesday, but this needs to go out now, and I'm advising against all good grace. It's not
going to happen. But then they manage to get prime time, and then I eat my words. But then
there are certain clients that I've had, like, in the financial regulatory space, especially with
cryptocurrency, where the story is as volatile and the market is as volatile as this media. So it's
more like it's not even a case of, like, timing. It's more just trying to get out before your
competitor does. And in that sense, like, you need to have your spokesperson prepared, and
you need to get them on side, and you're not going to arrange an interview for March 32nd or
anything like that. So timing is very important, but having your spokesperson, like, prepared
and available is just as important in that sense, and also for them to trust you. That's my
instincts in it. And also, if your client really, really wants it out, you have to kind of use your
own insight and judgment to go, okay, will it carry if it's something of like a national
conversation piece. Yeah, journalists will make time, and if you build those strong connections
with them, then they'll take a second look. So yeah, timing is key, but also it's just the strength
of the story as well. I think, what
Jack Murray 02:11
about you? Catherine on that? Just about a notion of where, where timing really made the
difference in either either something succeeding or failing.
Catherine 02:18
The thing that really sticks with me is the time when we had,
Catherine 02:23
we had, we had a protest in Trinity about Gaza. So we had a whole pile of students blocking the
Book of Kells. It was very well covered. It was one of the biggest stories that were that was out
there at the time, and we were literally in the middle of it, and we were trying to sort it out. And
there were efforts being made to sort it out and to get an agreement with the students for
them to leave. But our problem was was the agreement wasn't over the line, and this wasn't
really aligning with the new schedules. So it was six o'clock, and we went past, it was 630 and
we still didn't have any white smoke. And then it was seven o'clock, and we had a report of
Marty standing with fading light outside the Campanile, saying, listen, Catherine, can you bring
a spokesperson out and announce this for the Nine O'Clock News? Otherwise, I'm going to have
to go back to the studio. So I said, Okay, I'm telling you what. I'm gonna have to trust you. I'm
gonna have to trust you. It's not decided, but we're gonna pretend that it is. So we brought
somebody out, we had that person give the interview as though the decision had been taken. We were pretty confident the decision was going to be taken. Things were going to be taken.
Things were going to be sorted. We didn't know for sure. Did the interview under the absolute
trust that would not run unless we said was okay to run. And then sat there like crossing all our
appendages, waiting, and I think it was around quarter past eight when we got white smoke.
And then I was able to call our tea and say, yeah, it's okay to run that interview. So one of the
things we talk a lot about at media HQ is this concept of the story circle. You build an audience,
you shape a story, you then send that out into the world.
Jack Murray 03:55
You analyze what happened, and then you calibrate, and you go again. And one of the one of
the areas that is often misunderstood about the work that we do is the timing piece. So you
know who your audience is, you've crafted a story. Talk to me, Aislinnn, about the choices that
you have to make. Then, like people say, Oh, you just send it out. But you don't just send it out.
You have to make very strategic make very strategic choices about when, who and how and
timing is a huge part of that strategic piece on connecting the story out there.
Aislinn 04:34
Yeah, like, I see a lot of feedback from journalists and people within the pure field about how to
send out a pitch, and when is the right time, and sometimes even that, like it could be the right
time, and everything aligns. And it's just, you know, someone has gotten there beforehand. I
think when you're sending it out, kind of examine, you know, okay, who am I sending it out to?
For example, I'm going to send it out to a journalist that I know, who gives me feedback quite
regularly about whether they're going to carry a story. Sorry, and am I going to send it out to
five other journalists, or am I going to trust that this one's going to pick it up? There was one
case where we only sent something out for two two journalists, both of them picked it up. And
those are two targets that we wanted the timing piece on. That really it was more like we had,
like, two days, for example, for this one client to get the press release sorted and even get it up
on the website. We were waiting until it was published on the website to get it out. And it out.
And it was again, four o'clock in the day. I wasn't confident. It was more of a case of like,
advising the client, okay, if we don't go out, it's not going to go out until tomorrow, but it had to
go out today. So in that case, it was more just like, Okay, I'm going to tip off these people.
Look, you're going to expect something by four o'clock today, if it's, if it's, I'll let you know if it's
going to happen. And they were kind of, they were kind enough to get back to me and say,
Okay, that's that's fine. We'll wait. And they kept following up and kept following up. And the
pressure was building. And, you know, it was something that was going to happen whether or
not and we were going to go out with it eventually, it did work out. I suppose it's kind of a case
of like, if you've built up decent contacts, and you can kind of tip them off, and with your clients
permission, then it'll, it'll work. But sometimes you're just kind of have to go, like, listen, it's
now or never, just fire the bullet. And, yeah, that's, that's, that's one case of example anyway.
Jack Murray 06:12
What about you on that Catherine, just that notion of the strategic piece about, you know, how
the how the stuff is released. And, like, you know, just timing is a huge part of that.
Catherine 06:24
Yeah. I mean, sometimes what we try to do is really work with journalists. We understand now
we're really at a different time in journalism. At the moment, people don't have loads of time to
go analyzing things. People don't have. There's such a small interval between a story breaking,
and there's an expectation now that you almost have an analysis piece within around 10
minutes of the story breaking. Now, things are moving really, really fast, and we try at Trinity to
work with that we have the advantage that we have at our at our disposal, I suppose, or at
least we can contact people with expertise and all kinds of stuff. So, for example, there was,
fairly recently, there was
Catherine 06:59
the supreme court judgment. We knew it was coming on Judicial Appointments bill and it was
coming on Monday, so on Friday, we rang the news at one and said, We know that this
judgment is expected at half past 11 on Monday, we have an expert who is free to read that
judgment and can give you a considered analysis and feedback for one o'clock, do you want
them? Yes, and that's, that's how that worked. But, and, and that kind of thing happens.
Increasingly, we listen to morning Ireland, and we think, Hmm, there is a first bite of a story
where we get a second bite at drive time. And we pitch drive time if we have a person, if we
can, if we can, if we can make them available so it can be quite and you know that thing about,
like, like, when you get up to speed, and you know, you understand the cadence of the work,
that the new cycle is hard wired into you. So it's like, it's it's just there, like it's at your
fingertips. And you can see when new people come in, it takes a while for that calibration to
come but that's like a that's a that's a sense, that's a PR sense, or an instinct. It is an instinct,
and it has changed as well, I think, over time, because we really have now gone very 24 hour.
So while there is still a sort of a cycle that you can you can embargo something for a minute
past midnight, and it'll go into the papers and maybe go into morning Ireland, if you have a if
you have a big enough story, if you're lucky, yeah, um. But there is also, basically, you could
pitch anything at any time, and it could be the right time. Remember that tick tock trend? It
was from a couple of Christmases ago, and it was people would tell their their mom or their dad
that some celebrity had died, and they would pretend that they were reading it off their phone,
and they'd go so and so dead, and they'd get the reaction afterwards. And for me, like my
daughter said she was going to do Larry David dead, and my daughter said, Don't do that. But
it was, might have been dangerous, yeah, but it was. It's just this thing where as you're right,
like the story can break at any time. But if you were Catherine looking at the news cycle now,
like, what are key movements in the modern news cycle? What, like, what things are still
important to you in as a PR person, in terms of, like, the moments that the punctuating
moments in the day where everyone is paying attention, a big, a big story in broadsheets still
really matters. I think broadsheets still lead, because broadsheets lead radio and then TV
sometimes follows that again, and just to that point, like broadsheet still, like, you know, if
you're if you're on independent dot A or Irish times.com so like, broadsheet plus web presence
plus
Jack Murray 09:39
social. Sorry, yeah, but it like it still delivers a huge you still get a huge bang.
Catherine 09:44
You still get a huge bang for your buck. And, and increasingly, of course, yeah, they'll do
multimedia stories as well, even on some quite small stories. So that can be a wonderful thing
they've got. They, they're starting to employ journalists with with multiple skills and and getting
to know those journalists, those new journalists, those young journalists. Would be something
that I think about a lot, and seeing what they could do in terms of bringing on a story that could
help them, I suppose, in bringing on their skills and help us as well. You know, I really always
try and think myself into the mindset of somebody who's working in the industry and what their
lives are like, and what their experience of journalism is like, and what might be helpful for
them, because, you know, there's no point in really just throwing stuff at them. It's got to work
for them as well as for you.
Jack Murray 10:26
But you know, you know this piece too, where, like you, you know, certain stories evolve, where
you're on that marking for the day. So if you, if you, if you take that protest, for example, like,
you know you, you had the media attention there, but like, so you're a kind of more a price
maker than a price taker there? Yeah, invariably, we're price takers. Like, we're just, we're
trying to dip into somebody else's kind of schedule. And I often advise people, well, it's like any
normal day, like, people file into the media organization the morning and they're given
something to do, and unless you're like a part of the thing that they're doing that day, unless
it's a massive story, it's going to be hard to shift that momentum. Yeah.
Catherine 11:08
And I think what big mistake anybody makes is sort of getting annoyed or impatient with a
journalist because they haven't come back to you on something like that. I am always infinitely
understanding because they are busier than you are.
Jack Murray 11:20
Yeah, talk to us that just about the modern news cycle from your point of view and your your
work, and we the people like, what you know, the things that you innately understand about
the cadence of the new cycle and how that influences, maybe decisions that you make, or
things that, things that you think are still very important, yeah?
Aislinn 11:36
Like, it timing, like during the like, nine to five, I suppose, say it's really important. Like, I'm
always conscious try and get something out before 10am if you're going to go out with a big
press release, that kind of thing. But if it's something, like, I've often gotten a request for a
press release go out by the end of the day on a Friday, I'd be reticent to do that. I'm happy to
pitch for, like, a kind of a thought leadership piece of a Friday because, like, it's a little bit
quieter and even over the weekend, in that sense, if some I would not want to go out for
something that you want to see cover that same day, like after 12, for example, I wouldn't, I
just wouldn't do it. I'm just like, it's unrealistic, unless it's absolutely massive or, you know, it's,
you know, it's really tying it to something that's going on, like the Gaza conflict, things like that.
So it's, it's sort of like, do it before noon, do a preferably like even at eight o'clock schedule.
Let's go out the night before for like, eight o'clock in the morning kind of beat the punch,
because I feel like journalists are inundated from 9am to about like half 10, and then they're
kind of run, running and setting their schedules and things like that, even for morning Ireland,
for example, sometimes the night before they're still sorting out their own schedule. I get on
WhatsApp, if I can get their phone number and go listen, look, here's a breaking story. Would
you be able to do that? If I get them on Morning Ireland, then I'm not going to go for drive time,
because that feedback is like, you know,
Jack Murray 12:48
and the momentum from morning Ireland is, to your point, Catherine, momentum from like,
that big moment on the on the new schedule,
Catherine 12:55
it still really matters. And I mean, you can just look at the at the general or figures from
morning Ireland, it's still right in there. It's appointment to listen radio every morning. And then
it's funny, I mean that the mark is very fractured, and I know it's a particular age group that are
listening to RTE, and we still have to think about other audiences, but for the large bulk of our
audience, especially if you're trying to talk to people who are in business or who are in politics
or anything like that, trying to influence that sort of thing. Then, then you really are still with
those big shows, and not just RTE, obviously, you know, some of the other commercial shows
would also be very big, something. We'd be delighted with. Some of the news talk ones as well.
Jack Murray 13:36
Catherine, how would you handle the pressure? Then, where you have a colleague or
somebody senior who wants a story released, you know, by hook or by crook, but doesn't
understand that. Like, like, I remember when when media HQ and GDPR got rid of this, but we
used to have a ready to go version of media HQ where you could pay with a credit card, pick a
few pre made lists and send something out. And a woman used to come and send a press
release at four o'clock every Friday, and she'd spend like, 400 euros and pay with a credit card,
and maybe on the third week of this happening, the third Friday, I said, for God's sake, will
someone ring that woman and tell her like she may as well take that money out of her wallet,
set it alight like that? Nobody. And they rang this woman, and she was administrator in a
company, and she just said, no, no, it's fine. She said they asked me to send it out, and I did. My job is done, and I understand that attitude. If somebody wants to get something out
Catherine 14:29
back, I will fight back, I mean, and I will say it is my considered opinion that this is a not a wise
thing to do. You will not get coverage, if that is what you want. Yeah, me to send it out and not
get coverage. This is the way to do it. And I would say that I'm no, no problem.
Jack Murray 14:47
You also, what's that like for you? Ashley, when
Aislinn 14:50
that happens like, you know, most people who are my clients or people who don't have that
media knowledge, there's only one or two that are like, even more like expert at it than me.
They're kind of would trust me, and some of them are doing as a box ticking exercise just to
appease funders or stakeholders. And I'm just like, look, we can get you coverage. But like, if
what's, what's going to happen if we wait a day, that kind of thing, I ask them what their
priorities are. Like, it's, it's kind of like you're paying me for my like, expertise, my experience, my years of dealing with this and media relations. Like, are you going to go with my opinion?
Are you going to trust me, or are you just going to want to send it out and fall flat? So I was
like, Do you want results, or do you just want to tick a box?
Catherine 15:28
Also, I suppose you can't guarantee anything. I was just thinking like, you know, there's always
that. It wasn't that joke. Like, you know, of course, you plan for loads of things, and then the
pope dies and all. That's her off, yeah. But when the Pope died, I was just thinking about this as
well. Recently, it just so happened that, like about a month earlier, we had had, there's a an
organization called The Conversation, which publishes academic opinion pieces, which are
sometimes picked up by mainstream media. And about a month before the pope died, there
had been a piece by one of our academics about what the Conclave is and how it works. So
when the Pope did die recently, we were ready with that, and we went, here you go. We can
explain to the analysis piece, yeah, they're there and ready for them to go, they only to change
the top line. And it
Jack Murray 16:07
was like, it is, like, that is also the funny thing. I remember we did a big analysis piece maybe
three or four months into covid, which is like six years ago now. But like people, everybody had
the heebie jeebies, because the only thing anybody wanted to talk about was covid, but I could,
I can remember when I was when I worked in politics, and I'd be going in and out of Leinster
House, and like, you'd be fighting tooth and nail with the spokespeople of the other parties. But
if somebody was in the doghouse, like, if there was a particular crisis and someone was in the
dock for three or four days, you'd always get the nod off the other lads, like, you know, hope
you're all right, or hope it's going okay. And there were times when, like, another political party
would be in trouble, and you could have set yourself a light, and you wouldn't have got media
coverage like it was. You could just go home, or go over to Grafton Street and do a bit of
shopping. There was nobody, there was nobody lifting the phone you bought. I discovered this
in a previous conversation with both of you, obviously, Catherine, in your in your work, getting
media coverage for graduations is big, and I know Ashton, you've done that with MTU, that
you've that you've done as well. And managing, I want to talk for a bit about managing, the
strategy and the releases around around graduations, and the mechanics, the nerdiness
around the mechanics, the angles, the lines, the releases and stuff. And it's, it's a whole to do.
It's a kind of a it's a brilliant box full of a whole load of different things. Catherine, so just talking
a little bit about planning and
Catherine 17:36
honorary graduations, which are probably our big thing, because that's when you know, well
known people from you know, the great and the good are honored, and some very interesting
people will come to that. So in the past, this really shows how media has changed. In the past,
there used to be a phalanx of reporters and photographers that would come to this event, and
there was a kind of a place to organize them. However, in recent years, as budgets have gotten
more constrained, we are reduced to maybe one or two. But the upside for them is that we
have decided to make it more worth their while, to give them free rein, so we allow them to
roam around in the back end of things, where people are robing, where people are chatting,
where people are having the informal chats, and you can get some absolutely beautiful
absolutely beautiful shots. And we had some beautiful shots in the last honorary degrees of one
of the honorary degrees recipients, the Somali activist IFRA Ahmed, and her daughter. Her
daughter was trying on her hat, her little her graduation hat, so cute. And that's what, that's
what ran, okay. And I think you have to be, I think with graduations, as with many things now,
you do have to be a little bit more creative. You can't just expect there's a sort of a blurry
photograph of a whole pile of people in robes throwing up a hat. It's not interesting enough. So
we try and think about in advance, what the stories that we
Jack Murray 18:57
do have. How soon out do you know who's going to get an honorary doctorate, or,
Catherine 19:01
Oh, I will know about six weeks in advance, okay, and with other people sometimes, because
we're we make friends with people in the graduation service, and we might have somebody
who was in their 80s. We recently had a woman who had written a thesis on Harry Potter, and
she was a wonderful woman with an incredible spirit, and we had some amazing photographs
of her, and she went everywhere, you know, and just a good story, like everything, it's a good
story, but you have to give a good story. And it can't just be these people graduated.
Jack Murray 19:32
So Ashlyn, you do graduations for MTU, and you've done a number of them. The challenge
there is a little bit different, because you're looking throughout Munster, you're looking for cork
angles, and you're looking for in that big event of different graduations, the different stories tell
us about how you manage that and how you kind of, how you delve through it.
Aislinn 19:50
Oh, it's, it's not just even cork, it's also cork and Kerry and trying to manage multiple kind of
ceremonies and give them the equal attention that they deserve. And it. It's a huge
collaboration with, like, the alumni team as well, and the PR team. And you're just trying to
identify who it is, on top of the honorary doctorates as well. But you're trying to get those
lecturers to really dig deep and think who was a standout graduate for you, anybody who's,
like, really done well over the last four years, anybody who's received any awards that kind of
thing, even just, you know, I remember on the day, like, you're on about photographs, you can't
just have someone throwing a hat up. There was somebody who's dressed as, like Glinda, the
Good Witch, and as someone from Wicked like Elphaba. And I thought it was the sweetest
thing. So we just got a couple of them, like, those kind of real big moments. And somebody
even, like, jumping up and bringing their own, like, art equipment in that way, to just try and
make a photo interesting and send that out like it was, it took a lot of effort, a lot of
collaboration, and also just running around with our photographer, trying to find unique and
interesting people that you know showed like the diverse range within MTU. Some of my
favorite stories were just people who were, like a famous cosplayer and an influencer that was
doing a music masters, and I actually knew them and spotted them. And I was like, I was like, I
know you I had nobody told me that you were here and tried to bring them over and we and,
like, they've done really well, even afterwards. Now they've, they're getting their own pieces of
media, and it's just being able to kind of spot that goal, that's a story, and that's like, you know,
your PR training, like in action, like on the day, it's like, I know I can get something from you
come over here, that kind of thing. So there's a bit, there's a lot of prep work.
Jack Murray 21:22
And talk to me about the prep work, because, like, I spent, I spent my life managing people, to
develop technology to make that kind of, that piece of the story circle, which is sending easier.
So, you know, different lists, different treatments, different timings, to talk a little bit about
that.
Aislinn 21:39
So the strategy, like I created that whole execution plan, the one thing I wanted to manage was
media fatigue, because there was going to be a number of ceremonies happening across cork
and Kerry for those like two and a half weeks, and as well, then you wanted to pay attention to
the honorary doctorates. What I decided we were going to do three press releases, one that
was focused on national, one that was only on Kerry, and then one at the end of the ceremony
that included a tiny little wrap up piece about cork, but focus on the honorary Drina Allen and
that piece, you know, there was other things that were competing as well, like the general MTU
pieces on, like, thought leadership, you know, on their research and things like that. And we
had to communicate and, like, get sign off and say, Look, anything that's coming in now, right
now that the priority is the conference. Does this have to go out instantly? Can we plan this in a
certain time where we can send it out to a different vertical, like, you know, media, HQ is great
for that, because I'm like, Okay, this relates to business, right? Or agriculture. I don't need to
bother those journalists for something about comparing. It's like, unless there's, like, a master's
in, like, agriculture, that kind of thing. So I can send out and kind of segment the pieces that
are going out based on, like, the lists I prepared and obviously aligned with the strategy that I
have. And, you know, it's, it worked out really well. Actually, we got a huge amount of
coverage. We got a decent amount of coverage nationally. And we were competing as well with
other universities that were having ceremonies around at the same time. We also targeted,
like, very like, niche journalists, like, you know, food and art related ones as well, who got
coverage. And even, like, you know, trades like engineering Ireland, they're like, Oh, thank you
so much. They were so grateful to get those things. And obviously, Carrie as well. Carrie are so
just like, they're like, their own little capital in and of itself. Like we even had an on the ground,
kind of like news beat. There they were recording box pops and things, and had an interview as
well with the president of the university. So it was like that prep work and getting that
communication. Like, up to maybe about three months in advance was really helpful, and just
made things as chaotic as they were happening as smooth as they possibly could be.
Jack Murray 23:32
What were the Carr? What was coverage?
Aislinn 23:33
Like, Savage, if I could pull out the stat now about, like, the reach and things like that, like, but
it was, it was really decent. Like, we got loads covered. I'd say probably in total about like 50 to
60. You need different pieces of articles, like, across those few weeks, and then afterwards as
well, if I was to pull it out of my head. But no, they're really happy. They're and they were
always
Catherine 23:52
regional verticals. That's a really good thing. Increasingly, I've started to use them more and
more and to send out regional releases, just to just, just to maximize your reach, really. And the
more, the more, the more specific, the better. At this
Jack Murray 24:06
point, yeah, absolutely. And here's a question, because you're both in very kind of busy news
lanes, and both your jobs, there's an awful lot of communicating, and there's an awful lot of
outbound stuff. What? What does Catherine? Does the decision tree look like, when it becomes
like, okay, is this an exclusive? Do we pitch it? Do we just press release the hell out of this and
get it out as far and wide? When does something pop up? We think, okay, we need to give this
a little bit of different treatment, like what
Catherine 24:36
regularly, regularly. It's quite common for me not to press release things, and in fact, there are
times when I have realized, and that was maybe a kind of a defining moment for me, where I
realized, you may remember, that we had a story in Trinity where we were returning human
remains to inish boffin and. Human remains had been stolen by academics, not not recently,
and in the era when that was regarded as somewhat acceptable behavior from the island of
inish boffin and we were returning them. And I remember there was a lot of talk about how we
were going to communicate and and it was my view at the time that we should stay silent. And
it was the first, I think that was we've ever done that, and sticking to my guns on that was was
difficult, but we did. We stayed silent. We simply did what we were doing, and we didn't talk
about it too much. We sent out, I think, maybe one press release explaining what we were
doing. But other than that, we didn't put people forward. We let the community speak. And it
was the right call, I think. But that that happens, those calls happen a lot. I think we have to
decide all the time whether we're going to weigh in on an issue. There are issues that come up
all the time with regard to and we have a big team in Trinity. There are times when it becomes
more of a public affairs issue. We have to make those calls. Sometimes we have things that we
can communicate internally. We have people to do that as well. So we have an internal comms
issue. There is a bit of triaging of everything and and it doesn't always make it definitely
doesn't always make sense to blast a whole pile of press releases out. Sometimes it does.
Sometimes you may as well. But quite often, you have to think about other ways and be a little
clever, more clever about it. What does that look like for you?
Aislinn 26:21
Actually? Oh, similarly, I'd echo those sentiments. It's always a big task, depending on the
client and with the kind of appetite that they have, they're just one structure that we created
where it was like, Okay, is it going on the website? Is it going to be like, a feature piece or a
thought leadership piece? I love pitching people for interviews. I think they're valuable. They're
quick, and they're not like time extensive, like, a press release would be, and you're trying to
get that signed off. Or, like, I love op eds as well. I like being able to, like, have a long form
piece of content, if you can get it out there. And, like, the Irish of just, like, pitching that in and
of itself, press releases, I feel like they're, they're making a comeback now. And like,
everybody's just like, oh, just fire out a press release. And some people think that PR stands for
press reads and I want to strangle them. I want to strangle them. But unfortunately, they are
necessary evil, and they are some they're the most accessible way to get your news out there,
really like when it comes to deciding it like I would make a call go listen. Look, I'd love to pitch
this. This is an ongoing topic, and I think that something for radio, I love going to for radio.
Radio is my best friend in terms of pitching, or could we go regional for this if it's not, if they
still want to go out for a press release? But I'm like, I don't think you're going to get that
nationally. Do you want to see if you can get it locally or regionally, see how that goes, and
then maybe try and do an opinion piece on that nationally, if you can?
Jack Murray 27:35
And would you go ahead of an embargo? So if you're, if you knew something was going to be
issued tomorrow, would you, would you ring ahead to a couple of producers and say, Look, this
is going to be sent out tomorrow morning, just as a heads up for the program. And if you, if you
need someone, we have somebody here first.
Aislinn 27:49
When the client allows, I have certain ones who are like, I only want these people to know that
it's going to happen ahead. And if someone says, I want morning Ireland, then yes, absolutely, I
will get in contact with them. I That's why I'm like, I need a phone number rather than an email
address. And if I can get them on WhatsApp, particularly for like, morning Ireland or anybody in
broadcast, then definitely. But I have to always kind of make sure the clients have you at me
going ahead of that. But yeah, I'm always trying to get that piece and tip off journalists when I
can,
Jack Murray 28:18
if anybody's listening or watching and they wanted to learn more about the strategic piece
around timing and understanding the news cycle. What piece of advice would you give them?
Catherine, just about about learning about the kind of rhythm of the media.
Catherine 28:32
I think you need to talk to people. You need to get to know them. You can't just be sending
people emails. You need to sit down and talk to people find out what the rhythm of their day is.
How do they work? If you can manage to do that, I think that's probably the best thing to do. I
think one of the things that gives me the best advantage is the fact that I worked in I worked as
a journalist for so long. So I know it. I don't know exactly how it works now, because it has
changed, but I know it in my core, I know it. And I think, I think you have to approach people as
equals. You can't be trying to flog them things. You have to You
Jack Murray 29:09
were always good as that. You were always really good at that. Even as a journalist, you were
good at that. So you were good at the you were good at the at the meeting people, where they
were at being straight with them. And if you were going to do it, you'd say it. If you weren't,
you'd say it, thank you. It's but it's not. It's not always
Catherine 29:23
like that. It's not always like that, and it can be, and people can be tricky. Of course they can,
but I do think getting to know and I think people, I think one of the things that I have learned,
though it I mean, you can't overstate being friends with journalists. I don't mean that your
friendship with a journalist, or your closest to a journalist, is going to help you land a story. It
won't but it will help you understand where they're coming from and what matters to them, and
what pressures they're under, what and also like read read everything, listen to everything,
don't I think sometimes people don't, and I think. You need, you need to know who's out there,
what they're doing, what they're interested in, and follow up with people, just like human
beings, you know. I mean, if you say to somebody, if you're trying to pitch something,
somebody, and you don't know that they were talking about this very thing two weeks ago,
you're going to sound a bit like an idiot, you know. And you're not going to warn they're not
going to warm to you. So I think you have to be, be a mensch, you know, be a person and
expect that they're going to be a person as well. And say, I have a real thing for you, or I have, I
have a I have a thing that's kind of okay and might suit you. And just, and just be honest,
Jack Murray 30:35
there's a bit Ashton to where, like, we've all kind of banged around in the dark, and we've got
chewed out. We've rang news desks and got balled out and been told, Oh, look, that's
completely I remember una claffey Absolutely chewing me out once in political correspondent
in in RT because I was giving her a statement on Budget Day at about 20 to six, and she
absolutely chewed me out in front of everybody in the podcast room. What the f good is this to
me? She said, right now, I just kept walking and but what like so, so like, what advice would you
give to people on learning,
Aislinn 31:11
on learning. Know, know who you're reaching out to try not to spam. The same thing.
Personalize it a little bit again. Treat them like a human being. Go listen. Look, I know the news
cycle is crazy right now, but I just wanted to flag this again. Like to see if you're if it's of interest
most of the time, even if you're not, like, on a good, like, on a familial term, with them, they'll
go back and get Sorry. Sorry. It's not for me now. And I just thank them for that. Just be polite. I
see there's a lot of feedback on LinkedIn and, like, it's kind of, let's it's already it's kind of telling
me things I already know, but it's things that I still like and engage with. So people within my
network can also understand people's feedback. Like, depending on the agency that I've
worked with, worked with, there's people who prefer getting reached out to via Telegram,
people who prefer WhatsApp. People are like, only email me. Even on certain services that I've
used before, they have preferences, saying, only contact me if you're pitching me for this on
from like Monday to Thursday or, you know, it's not going to happen. So it's just kind of reading,
like being, like, media literate, you know, consuming the media that you want to get published
in that way, and just kind of picking it up, just do it, you know, that kind of thing, like, and
again, just be a person about it.
Jack Murray 32:20
Like to Catherine's point, relationships do land context into your lap? So when you know
people, like someone will ring you and say, Look, something's after falling through here. Do you
have anything or, look, we had something lined up tomorrow, and there's 15 minutes that we
need to fill. I'm wondering, do you have something that someone
Catherine 32:35
so it doesn't happen often enough, but it does happen wonderful. Yeah, it is wonderful.
Jack Murray 32:39
And then the other thing that's wonderful is when it all works out, like we all kill ourselves to
get coverage. The thing I used to love when I was at it the whole time was when you have a
figure in something, and you knock something up in 10 minutes and send it out, and that got
the coverage, and you're like, we're in such bonus territory here. I didn't have this thought 10
minutes ago, and that's kind of half the magic of public relations.
Speaker 1 33:00
I love news jacking like, I love spotting a story going, I think I can insert something in here and
getting that coverage. And you're like, yes, like, it's kind of just going, like, I know what I'm on
about. I know my stuff. And it's knowing that you have that Bank of kind of thought leaders or
trusted voices to help you get it over the line. And there's like, yeah, pitch, we'd have to do that
every single day for one of our clients. We'd have to come up with five different topics on a
very evolving new space, and they approve, like two or three, and we'd have to try our best to
get coverage by any means necessary. So, you know, it's a hit when you do finally get it that
you're like, Yeah, I know what I'm doing. So to finish
Jack Murray 33:32
today's episode, we're going to do the rapid fire round, and I'm going to start with you, Ashlyn,
I'm going to ask you the five questions, and then I'll come to you, Catherine. So to start, Ashlyn,
what one media moment has changed how you work?
Aislinn 33:46
Yes, I do have an answer prepared for this. So it's related to the Gaza conflict that's going on. I
had this pro bono client, at least, I think it was, I didn't really discuss it, but they were actually
going on the hotel that's heading over to Gaza. And there was a time there where we didn't
have any kind of ongoing conversation with them, as they had. They were on a boat. They had
no coverage, and we were getting constant queries going in because they knew, once they
knew my number and my name was attached to it, they were like Ash and tell me, this, this,
this, this, this, I was creating, I suppose, like statements. I'm running them by my Managing
Director, because they had a more kind of intense, like, knowledge of that particular person
and what would want to go out. And they just stopped me. They were like, This is too
editorialized. You need to strip it back. You need to be able to be comfortable say, like, we don't
have any comment right now. We'll give you an update as soon as possible. And that made me
go, okay, not everything needs, like, you know, five, six sentences on it. Sometimes I'll just
send a holding statement and get comfortable with sending that and go listen to that and go
listen, look the second, I know you will know, and to kind of build that rapport with those
journalists as well. And you know, it worked out really, really well in the end, eventually, we did
manage to get her and also her family connected as well, but it was just kind of being more
comfortable with those holding statements.
Jack Murray 34:58
Give me an example of something that. It failed that you learned from
Aislinn 35:02
so everybody wants to have a minister at their launch, and they want to hold out for a minister.
We had one client where they had a new resource launching in September, but they needed to
have people signed up by September, and they waited so long that it was literally August 31 by
the time we were getting a press release to go out, amplifying this thing that they want to
register, registered for the day that the we did that launch with said minister, a protest was
happening against said minister. It was nigh impossible to try and get coverage on that. And
what I learned from it greatly was, listen, you don't always need a minister to try and like show
whatever program you're doing, or to kind of get that coverage there. You can trust them the
value of it, but they wanted it for their stakeholders piece as well, to kind of connect their
funders as well with the minister. But I'm more comfortable now in saying, listen, look, do you
absolutely need them? Are they going to add it?
Jack Murray 35:54
Add to it? What one universal belief about public relations do you think is wrong or overstated?
Aislinn 35:59
I think people need to be more comfortable with pitching out of hours or on a Friday or over the
weekend and going to a Sunday for Monday. I know there's that embargo piece there, but even
just for interviews and understanding, there will be lulls sometimes, especially for like radio and
things like that, sometimes they just need to fill something or, you know, they're trying to find
that next pizza, next story, just be a bit more comfortable with it. Like, I remember I, I was
teaching my my direct report, about pitching, and I was like, listen, look, it's 12 o'clock on a
Friday, but like everyone says, don't pitch on a Friday. Go against that. And they got like, five
different pieces from like national media as well, like Irish Times, and they were like, what? And
I was like, I told you, just go out.
Jack Murray 36:36
Do it. What one piece of advice do you wish you'd heard earlier in your career? I wrote this
down
Aislinn 36:43
the phone. Is your friend. Don't be afraid to pick up phone. I've never personally been too afraid
of that. But like, just be comfortable in trying to pitch journalists over the phone, rather than
just reaching out initially via email. And also, do not spam pitch. Do not spray and pray. That's
not your it's not the way to make friends with journalists at all. Like, be literate, be knowing
what they're actually covering. Have they covered that, like you said two weeks ago, they don't
really need it if it hasn't been in their publication, like a week ago, that kind of thing. Just really
know that, and also just believe in yourself a little bit.
Jack Murray 37:12
Very good. Finally, what one book do you think everybody in your job should read?
Aislinn 37:16
This is like, one book that I really love, and I'm trying to get, make sure I get the name right,
The New Rules of Marketing and PR by David merman Scott, and it's kind of a love letter to the
art of storytelling. For business has a load of case studies on like, you know, things
internationally or like, different CEOs, different kind of products, and like campaigns and things
like that. And it really focuses on digital PR as well. So like, it's, it's a huge book. It almost looks
like a dictionary, but I'd recommend getting it, and it's constantly being updated as well with
new case studies. So there you go.
Jack Murray 37:43
Brilliant Catherine, what one media moment has changed how you work?
Catherine 37:47
My first press conference as a PR person, I've been to many, many, many press conferences as
a journalist. My first press conference as a PR person was six years ago, and it was during
covid, and it was in a building that I didn't know with academics and other people that I didn't
know, and I actually just didn't know anything. And at the end of it, I thought it had all gone
fine, when somebody said, What about the photograph of the two principals with the minister?
And I went, what now? So yeah, that was that I didn't get the photograph. That was the only
thing was my, literally my only job, and I did not manage to do it, so I haven't done that again. I
learned
Jack Murray 38:26
a lot from that one. Give me one example of something that failed that you learned from I'm
going
Catherine 38:30
to go back to years and years ago, when I was starting out in journalism, and I applied for a job
in Germany as a financial journalist, and they had to administer a test, a knowledge test about
financial markets. It was Bloomberg. And so there were 20 questions in the test. And I did prep
for it. I tried very hard. I got two out of 20. What did you learn? It was an early blow against
perfectionism. I still got the job. Great.
Jack Murray 38:58
What is one universal belief about public relations that you think is wrong
Catherine 39:02
or overstate that friendships will buy you coverage. I am married to a journalist, and he will not
accept my pictures.
Jack Murray 39:08
I used to when I when I worked, my wife's a journalist, too. I used to he her colleague used to
ring me because I wouldn't tell her anything. What is one piece of advice that you wished you'd
got earlier in your career
Catherine 39:21
that you don't need to know it all, that if you're worried that you don't know it all, you're
probably
Jack Murray 39:26
grant and finally, what book do you think everyone in your job should read?
Catherine 39:30
Scoop by Evelyn wall. I don't know if you've read it, but it basically captures, I think, some of
the essential hilarity and madness that is the world of media, and I love it for that.
Jack Murray 39:43
Thank you, Catherine, thank you, Ashlyn, that was inside media relations. Hope you enjoyed it.
Thanks for tuning in. Come back the next time when we'll be looking at strategies, ideas and
tactics, about how to get your story further, faster to more people. Thanks for tuning in.
