Moving beyond the mechanics of email outreach, the conversation examines why some stories gain real traction while others fade without impact.
Together, they explore the balance between narrative strength, timing, data, relationships, and judgment — sharing real examples of stories that travelled, and those that didn’t.
This episode focuses on the craft behind media impact, unpacking what actually determines whether a story cuts through in today’s crowded media environment.
Transcript:
Jack Murray 00:00
Welcome to Inside media relations, the podcast for PR people serious about getting their stories
covered, we will examine why a story lands or disappears into thin air. I will speak with PR
professionals and communications leaders who practice Media Relations every day to
understand what actually works and why. In this episode, we will examine the story that lands,
we will discover what really makes a story cut through. Is it the angle, the timing, or maybe the
relationship with the journalist, whether it's pitched, released or strategically placed? Why do
some stories travel far and others die a death? We will look at real examples of stories that
worked or stories that failed, and look at what made the difference to make this journey. Today,
I'm joined by two very experienced and successful PR people, Fiona O'Malley is the CEO of the
domestic violence charity, sonus and Stephen Hopkins is the head of media at IBEC. Let's get
inside media relations, Fiona, let's start with you. Tell me about a story that you may have
worked on, that you were surprised by the impact that it had. You shaped it up, you sent it out
there. You didn't think it'd do as well as it did, and then it got really big.
Fiona O'Malley 01:10
Yeah, so I used to work for a peer agency when I lived in London, and we had a client that came
to us called contact a family. It's a charity that supports families who have children with severe
physical and mental disabilities, and they came to us with a blank slate, and they said, We want
increased brand awareness. We want media lands, and we would hopefully like that to translate
to fundraising, to donations to our charity as well. But they didn't have any statistics. So I said,
Can I have access to the families that you work with, and can I survey them? And the results of
the survey were quite shocking. I suppose the questions that we asked them were asked in a
way that I suppose, no matter what the answers were, they would be relatively newsworthy. So
the statistics that we came back was that the average cost of raising a child with severe
physical and mental disabilities in London was more than three times the cost of children
without these disabilities. And we also found that one in three families regularly went without
heat, and one in four families regularly went without meals. So when I saw these results, I knew
they were very newsworthy, and I was delighted sending it out, pitching it to the media, but I
had no idea it just spread like wildfire. It was Sky News, BBC News, BBC World News, all the
tabloids, all the broadsheets, and a lot of regionals as well. And it was the media coverage was
so busy, it was difficult finding enough spokespeople to go on and to take all the media
interview requests, and
Jack Murray 02:41
just tell me about I'm really interested in the kind of the tactic or the mechanic behind that. So
you went to the membership base, you did a simple survey, yes, long did the survey take?
Fiona O'Malley 02:52
There's only 10 questions, okay, so it didn't take them very long, because we know they're
busy. We didn't want anything too onerous.
Jack Murray 02:58
And then you analyze the results, and news line. The news line kind of, kind of came out, and
did you just press release it then and send it out? Or how
Fiona O'Malley 03:05
did you do so, we drew up the press release, obviously, sent back to the client for approval for
any tweaks, and then we sent it out to the media. So it was relatively smooth in terms of
mechanics. And there's
Jack Murray 03:14
a real lesson there in the like, in the news line within your own membership base, Stephen,
you'd be, you'd be used to that. And I back, like surveys and that, what, what does that story
look like for you, that you worked on that bigger than you thought? Probably going
Stephen Hopkins 03:26
to, deliberately not, in his case, pick an example of, I back, nor the American Chamber of
Commerce, because for as long as I've been doing media, you know, we've been, we have a
public profile for the very nature of our organization. You know, Brexit, covid trumped twice.
You know, there's been big changes, you know, politically that have impacted the companies
that we represent. So not surprisingly, like Fiona, probably picking an example from my agency
experience, because often the challenges are very different and similar to that. You know, I was
working with a fin a UK based FinTech company who had had a growing Irish customer base,
but had no footprint here. Had done a lot of marketing spend. But I suppose the natural
progression for was them as what can we do in the earned media space? And they had no plan.
They had a budget, and that was kind of the height of it. And we were trying to figure out, what
can we do, I suppose, to position them. And similar, you know, again, to the example that Fiona
gave, is there was kind of a couple of things, you know, ultimately we needed to do some form
of of research in order to kind of frame a story. But obviously they were in the foreign exchange
space, so we were able to look a little bit at the kind of personal habits around, kind of financial
health, etc. And the opportunity of what was kind of coming down the pipeline was that there
was going to be an exit of two major financial institutions in the Irish market, KBC and Ulster
banks. So I suppose people were probably had questions about the competitiveness of the
banking landscape in Ireland, and maybe that would raise questions about offerings, etc. So I
suppose that was the first point. And interestingly enough, that landed really, really well, wall
to wall, national coverage. We managed to get their UK spokesperson. And across a lot of
broadcast, which can be a challenging when they don't necessarily have a footprint in Ireland.
But that was the most rewarding part of that piece was, is that we were able to then kind of
follow that up with a number of other pieces. What was the main news line in that piece? What
was the basically that that Irish consumers were concerned about the lack of competition? You
said that was that piece. But we were able to follow that that up, say we did that in the
summer. We were able to follow that up with the kind of a series, a series of pieces of research.
We did one around and financial planning for Christmas, another one around holidays. So like
the really interesting one about the holidays, we were able to break into, maybe the the, I
suppose, the non traditional, main kind of broad sheet. We're able to go a lot more into kind of
the consumer trade as well, tabloid trade as well.
Jack Murray 05:41
Isn't that one of the amazing things with PR, though, and the people that don't understand it,
that notion that, like, when you when you look at it from the outside and you don't fully
understand it, it's like magicking something up out of thin air. And, like, I always say to people,
it's like, that notion of like, you're doing keep your piece in there, and especially when you're in
an agency business, that you're like, you're keeping that link with the client, and you're
keeping it relevant, and you're keeping it out there, but it is this thing of like that Genesis,
what, like a finding what the news line is that's going to resonate 100%
Stephen Hopkins 06:10
and then, you know, if you find that sweet spot, there's an opportunity to build on that. So
ultimately, when you do pieces of research like that, and I've worked with a HR company in a
similar space, we did global media for them, where, when you find that thought leadership
position for them, you ultimately have changed. Ultimately have trends so that further positions
their strength in that space as well. Because you can say, well, this is what it was like last year
versus this year. So the kind of opportunity, even for growth for those clients, is huge.
Jack Murray 06:32
And I suppose there's a piece too around both of those examples, that when you back it up with
a good spokesperson's performance, then you build that credibility, and then the relationship
comes from that. And the person goes, Oh, these people are good at sourcing stories. Like, the
next day I have dead air, or I'm really stuck. And like, the call we all love to get as PR people is,
look programs a bit bare tomorrow. Is there anything on your desk that would help me? And
then you know that you're in the driving seat. So Stephen, if you could give me one, this is a
hard question, but if you could give me one sentence, what makes a story land for you as a
pure person, so what in one sentence? What's the answer? What's the answer to that?
Stephen Hopkins 07:09
It's very simple. I'm going to try and do this in one but, but it's ultimately, it's finding your in
your moment, in the new cycle, to insert your narrative. Okay?
Fiona O'Malley 07:20
Fiona, well, I can do it in one word at goat hook. So I remember, years ago, I used to work for
this, I won't actually name the charity, but I used to work for a charity, and the lady who kind of
I reported, she didn't have a background in marketing or PR and wanted something sent out to
the media. And I think what she thought the headline of the press release, it was nearly a
paragraph long, and it was so heavily branded. I was like, this isn't going to go anywhere. And I
was trying to explain the concept of a hook, and I was saying it's like, it's kind of like a crude
example, but it's nearly like gossip, like, if you can summarize something that's interesting in
one sentence, that's your hook. And if it's that's what something newsworthy is. And if I think
sometimes journalists are so up to their eyes, and they're expected to produce so much so if
you write articles nearly in this or write press releases nearly in the style of an article where the
hook is in the first line of the press release, like the headline of the press release, you're more
likely to get good ones.
Jack Murray 08:20
I used to do a press release writing course, and I had an equation in it that said, Good Idea plus
hook equals story. And sometimes people will come to you and they'll say, I have an idea, and
that's all it is. It's like a raw idea that's kind of floating in mid air, that isn't that isn't anchored
anywhere, and it's only when you explain to them like and it's one of those funny ones. I was
joking with a friend of mine, who's a musician, last week, and Leo Morin from the saw doctors.
I've listened to him on a podcast, and they were talking about songwriting, and he said, Oh
sure, if I knew how to write a song, I tell you. He said, They all just come to me. But there's a bit
here where, like, you do have to anchor it in the context. That's what's really important.
Fiona O'Malley 09:06
Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting what you're saying about the saw doctors, because I
remember Billy Conley, some one person asked him how jokes work, and he said, I don't know.
I'm just glad I'm here when it arrives. But, yeah, I think just having something, you know, new
or interesting or a different angle on on something is so important because, as you say, if it's
just an idea, it's not, it's not really anything. And, you know, once it's once it grabs you. And I
suppose a good kind of measure of if something will land, like, you know, I would always say to
clients, you know, I'm someone of average intelligence and average abilities, and if I
understand, and if I am interested, then a journalist will probably understand, be interested,
and therefore the public will probably understand, be interested. And I think oftentimes people,
particularly when they're passionate about a subject, or even if it's very complex, like if it's
medical or legal, they can. I really struggle with simplifying it. But actually, the best medical
lectures and legal lectures are the ones that can simplify complex issues,
Jack Murray 10:10
and that's the scale. Like, I've done a lot of media training with scientists, and you know, you
always meet the scientist who comes kind of really pent up and, like, not given an inch. And
like, they'll have a go at you then, and they'll say, you're trying to dumb me down. And you're
saying, like, I used to have a line when I'd get there, you're trying to dumb me down. I'd
obviously, no, no, I'm trying to open you up. I'm trying to explain it. And like, my mother is a
huge touchstone for anything that I do and that, like, if I'm ever in a media setting, and I'd ring
my mom afterwards, and if she said to me, Geez, that went right over my head. I think, okay,
we failed there today. Whereas, if she, if she could explain, if she could understand it, it would
really work. Steven, tell me your view on this, like, what's more important the quality the story
or the relationship with the journalist? So, what? Like, what, what's, what's going to be more of
a factor on if it if something lands, or if it doesn't?
Stephen Hopkins 10:59
You're not gonna be surprised by this answer. The answer is both really, right, like, of course,
you know, and actually kind of linked to what we're talking about there. We can all think of
those examples in our career where we managed to find the story when it maybe didn't exist.
But also part of this, we've also been with clients are been working for organizations where we
have something brilliant, and actually the skill is making sure we maximize it as much as
possible, right? So, of course, if you have a good story, and you understand the fundamentals
of, you know, of landing a story, you know, it should have a good impact. But I'm more
interested in those moments where you can really maximize and ultimately rinse the cut
through. Because, particularly in nowadays, where, like, how people receive their news is so
fragmented that often, when you have a big story, you need to be cutting through multiple
platforms. You need to be cutting through multiple newspapers as part of that. So going back to
your question then about the relationship with the journalist, I think again, if you understand
the journalist well, you understand what interests them, you understand how they will receive
the story. You'll ultimately understand who you should target and have that conversation with.
So the answer is kind of kind of both. But I think particularly on those moments where you have
a good story and you need to maximize it, that relationship with the journalist is
Jack Murray 12:11
really important. Okay, what do
Fiona O'Malley 12:13
you think about that? Fiona, yeah, I agree. And actually talking about cutting through. I before I
came into PR, I worked as journalist myself, and, you know, I was very junior, but I did a couple
of internships. I did one for Vogue magazine, for the Sunday Times, and then I wrote a few
pieces for the Irish Times and the observer. But when I was on the news desk in the Sunday
Times, we would easily get like, 100 press releases an hour. And one of the editors said, if I'm
not captured within the first five words, I probably won't read on. And she said, one time when
she was reading a book, even though it was recommended her, she didn't read more than two
words because she just kind of recoiled. I said, God, what were the first two words? And she
said, Malcolm awoke. And she said, I didn't like the name Malcolm, and I thought awoke was
pretentious. So you have to consider that the person the other side probably is inundated and
people have a low attention span.
Jack Murray 13:10
The two examples of in my career, of things that I didn't realize would end up where they did
happened within about three weeks of each other, 24 years ago, and I was working for the
progressive Democrats, and Michael McDowell, he's still a senator, had an unbelievable sense
of the context of news and his ability to insert himself in so around then Bertie Hearn was
planning a national stadium, which became called the Bertie bowl, and I got a call One day. It
was a week before the election campaign, and he used to do these kind of. His office was at the
triangle in Ramallah, and he used to do this like a speech from the triangle. And as one of the
lads used to say, you'd imagine him going out to the traffic lights like and delivering the
speech. But it was, it was his views on the on this new stadium. And he just rang me and he
said, Can you issue this? And in those days, you would fax it to people, and then you would
print it off and walk across the road to Leinster House and hand it out to the journalists. And to
my great eternal shame, I didn't even read the thing right? I was doing what I was told, walked
across, handed it out, and I walked from South Frederick Street to Leinster House, and the
podcast room was on the second floor. And when I came back, my mobile rang, and it was Mark
Brannock, who was with the Irish Times at the time. And he said, This is good stuff. Lot of really
strong stuff here. I like the stuff. I like the Ciao cescao stuff. And I said, Oh yeah, the Ciao
cescao stuff. I hadn't read it, and in it, he described it as akin to a vanity project the former
Romanian dictator Nikolai Ceausescu. He said it was a Ceausescu era project that had no place
in modern politics. And the whole story blew up. And Mary Harney even rang me and said, Why
did you do that? And I said I was only doing what I was told. Fast forward then to the middle of
the election. Campaign, and it looked like Fiona fab were going to get an overall majority.
Everybody was wrecked. It was a Saturday, and he rang me, and he said, Can you come out?
He said, and can you get the media to come with you? I'm putting up a poster just off the
triangle in ran LA and I just want to get some media coverage. And the poster said, single party
government, no thanks. It's on reeling in the years. So if you go to reading in the years from
2002 you see me with a very bad denim jacket picking this lamppost outside Ken Doherty's
mother's house. And it became the moment of the campaign. And it the whole of the country's
thought. Fianna Fail can't get an overall majority. They need someone in there as a check and
balance. And that was his unbelievable instinct on the context of news. Talk to me about that,
then about the context of news, about and Stephen, you'd be used to this, because people
come to to the organizations that you've worked I'm thinking of IBEC now, people would come
for a spokesperson, someone to say something. You can say the safe thing. You can drive it
over the edge. You can, you know, you a lot of your day job would be working on, you know,
someone's on a beat, and there's a story on the latest development, and they need a comment
from you guys. But you can manage that opportunity in different ways.
Stephen Hopkins 16:14
Yeah, yeah. It's really interesting. Michael Mattel, story, that intuition for a media story is
incredible, and part of that, as you said, is understanding the context. You know, I think
working with IBEC, I think, you know, we understand that we have, like, a level of analysis and
expertise. And, you know, I've been honest with you, we don't play it safe when we see the
value for our members, you know, if ultimately we have to, you know, say something or take a
particular position, you know, we are comfortable doing that when that's kind of the right thing
for the for the organization. So I suppose from, kind of, from from that context is like, you know,
our kind of, if the right thing to do is to engage with the media as part of that, of course, you
know, you know, we do that and kind of consider that, consider it within that context. But I
think kind of even more fundamentally that that is that often when kind of things are
developing, particularly in the regulatory and the policy landscape, often it takes a couple of
weeks before we kind of get to that point. So I often find kind of the really effective ways to
kind of insert yourself into that context is in the early beginnings of that conversation, when
journalists are starting to become interested and engaging with journalists so that you become,
ultimately the kind of the point for that particular issue or that sector, and then how it relates to
them. You know, what do you think
Fiona O'Malley 17:28
about that? Fiona, what's your view on that? Yeah, I agree. And I think it's kind of building trust
over years with journalists and pitching good quality stories to them. And that's why,
sometimes if you ask, or if someone that you report to asks you to send out something, and
you know, it's not going to land, you kind of, you're kind of frustrated, and try to push back and
say, I don't think it's going to land for XYZ reasons. But also the odd time that there might be
quite forceful and insistent, then you're also at the back of your mind, conscious that, well, this
will reduce my you know, how, how I am perceived in terms of, oh, they're a good
spokesperson on these issues, or they're a good person to go to if, you know we need an op ed,
or you know we need an exclusive OR we need a case study. So I think it's about building trust,
trust and being consistent. Because you know, if you don't pitch good quality content and
newsworthy stories, not only are you eroding that trust, but you get people unsubscribing.
Jack Murray 18:29
And what works really well with journalists that PR people don't like underestimate what cuts
through with journalists that you do in your daily in your daily work that you know that doesn't
have probably as much of value on it as it should.
Stephen Hopkins 18:41
I was going to say, kind of linked to that, like the cardinal sin I think, in our world is not getting
back to a journalist. You know? I think that, going back to Fiona's point about the relationships,
I think what, what certainly is very important for for us as an organization, is that if there are
particular moments in time where we're not in a position to comment, is to have that
conversation with the journalists provide a context of why we're not been able to gage at this
particular point. And I think, you know, in a world where journalists are moving from story to
story very quickly, that kind of honest, kind of conversations that you have with them, I think
does build up an enormous amount of trust. So when there is that opportunity to kind of
engage in a particular topic, you know, there is a really, really strong mutual trust between
yourself and that particular journalist.
Jack Murray 19:24
One thing that really frustrates me, and like I spend my life building tools to try and make the
interaction easier, and trying to make the cut through easier, is that, you know, people will
slavishly spray and pray something where they don't think for five minutes. Oh well, the radio
journalist has different needs. The Sunday journalist has different needs. There's no point in
sending that to a local journalist, and that just a little bit of management around how you're
how you're sending it out, and like we talk about the story circle, you build your audience, you
craft your story. There's craft and sending. And I'd like to hear your views on this, about what
makes the news like, if I'm working on a on a daily radio program, getting a heads up today
that, look, this has gone out tomorrow. We will have a spokesperson tomorrow for this. Can you
keep this to yourself, but like, I'm just giving you a heads up here now, because, you know, I'll
be issuing this tomorrow, and then you'll be scraping around looking for someone, but I'm
available here today. What's your view on that?
Fiona O'Malley 20:22
Fiona, yeah, absolutely. Floor planning is really important, and I think particularly if you have
something that you think will land really well, it's important to have actually, a few
spokespeople prepped and ready and on script, because oftentimes, when you're booking in, as
you know, lots of radio interviews, sometimes schedules clash, and you need at least two, if not
three spokespeople to be familiar. That could be like,
Jack Murray 20:48
like, you know, we're not talking about your current jobs now, but like, poor execution by
spokespeople is very frustrating for PR people, because, you know, it's that thing I used to say
to people, like, I land the ball on your forehead six years out from the goal. I just need you to
score it. And like I've been involved in jobs with people where you know, and the thing that is
just the greatest crime for me is that you have an opportunity that you can't avail of.
Stephen Hopkins 21:13
I've heard that this was, I wasn't involved in this, but I had heard, genuinely wasn't I heard
some PR person that told me before that they'd managed to get their client onto the diary of a
CEO, and the execution was that poor, they never published it. Imagine landing a top tier
podcast like that, and the result is they don't publish it. You know, that sounds heartbreaking,
actually,
Jack Murray 21:34
yes, I had a client once who I got on a really kind of prominent show, and they they rang me
back, and the reason they didn't want to do it was that they were scared and they weren't up to
it. And they said, I don't like that journalist. And I said, What's that got to do with anything? I
said, I don't like them. I don't like half the journalists, but like, that's nothing to do with
anything. I said, like, if not liking people stopped you from doing things you wouldn't do half the
things that you were supposed to do. And the reason was that they were just petrified about
the opportunity. You know,
Stephen Hopkins 22:00
execution is so important. And to Fiona's point, allowing that time, and we've all been there
where clients, where we have pushed back on the timing of when they wanted something to
drop, because they haven't enabled or allowed you enough time to have those conversations
with journalists. And go back to your point about, I suppose, figuring out what interests
journalists. Again, another cardinal sin, I'm going to say is particularly in an Irish context. You
know, I've worked in media landscapes in the UK and the US, relationships are tough. It's a
much broader landscape. In Ireland, you should really know your your your media intimately,
and you should understand kind of, what makes them thick and what's their interest. Because,
you know, we are dealing, ultimately, with a smaller pool of of journalists than you would be in
other countries. Yeah.
Jack Murray 22:38
And like, I suppose the other thing too, that, like it's, it's, let's shine a light on this for a minute
or two, that you craft a good story, you've a really good hook, you have a really good angle, but
then the kind of strategy piece comes about, well, what are we going to do with this, and how
are we going to get this out there? And sometimes people say to me, Well, how do you do that?
And I often say to them, Have you ever seen what I always said to people, someone who isn't a
PR person, have you ever seen Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? And they'll say, Well, I said, it's
like a series of lifelines. And I said, like, you know if you're going to be happy with the if the
lifeline that you choose is going to get you to where you need to get to it, then you'll lose it. So
you're not going to use phone a friend if you just waste it, or you're not going to do 5050 if
you're going to waste it. So I said, Whatever lifeline you pick, and whether it's send a press
release, pitch it. You know, have an exclusive like, there's a whole host of ways of doing it, but
you have to be happy with the outcome. Do Fiona? Do you use any particular decision process
when you get something? Is it purely on Ghost? Is it like, okay, need to send this far and wide,
or this is really tailor made for this kind of context. Or how do you approach it?
Fiona O'Malley 23:45
Yeah, I probably would use my gut. But then, obviously, for example, the Sundays, you have to
send that out way in advance, because they probably will be planning the week ahead. And I've
been in situation for where person your report is like, No, we need to send it out. We definitely
need to get in the Sundays. And you're like, it's Sundays and you're like, It's four o'clock on a
Friday, like you're wasting your time. And similarly, when people sometimes plan, they can
assume, in my experience, people who probably don't understand the media landscape as
much, they can assume that everyone will want an exclusive. So, for example, I used to work
for CMR of common, the charity of common Children's Hospital. And someone that I was
working with was very knowledgeable in marketing and fundraising, but didn't fully understand
PR, and they were lining up case studies. And, you know, we had, we did have a good bank of
case studies, but, you know, she's now tearing her hair out. And she was like, Oh, well, if we
send this to the Irish Times, and we can't use it in the Indo, and then this will have to, you
know, this case study. You can go to the Sunday Times, and I was like, we're not giving
exclusive unless they ask for them. And oftentimes, when, in my experience, when you send
something out, then they might cover it, which be great. But oftentimes people come back and
say, we'd like to do something similar. But can we have a different case study? And can we
have an exclusive. And I'm always happy to agree to those kind of things. But I think
sometimes people overestimate how much the media want exclusive on things.
Jack Murray 25:08
Yeah, and then it's funny, like you see stuff where, you know, you find that RT are sometimes
more obsessed about another RT program. You don't listen to news talk at all, so you'd be
thinking to be worried about it being on a competitor station, and they're only worried about it
that nobody else appears anywhere else on their schedule, which is, can be very challenging on
a rolling news story, what's, what's your view on that?
Stephen Hopkins 25:29
Stephen, yeah, like, I think, like, ultimately, you should assign the tactics based on ultimately
that the story you had, you know, and I said it kind of at the start, that if you have a big enough
piece, well, then you should be looking for that blanket coverage you should be but also, part of
that process is also to think about the alternatives, like we're sitting here on a podcast as well.
You know, there's been, there's been a huge kind of revolution that's happened in our media
space, particularly our traditional media space as well. You know, we spoke before we came on
around, you know, particular news outlets that have done well in the podcast space. It's really,
really important that you explore every kind of opportunity that exists in terms of your kind of
tools when you're going to strategy. And of course, there will be, you know, we've examples
where we decide we do want to go an exclusive route, because it's going to be a longer sit
down piece with with one of the Sundays. I think you've got to re really clear what's the
outcome of what you're trying to achieve. Here I give a very simple example in some cases, if
you know, I work with maybe an organization within our umbrella, within IBEC, and part of it is
just that they, they want an opportunity to be able to find an op ed that they can set out their
their priorities. And actually, it doesn't need to be necessarily a top tier. They just wanted a
kind of a digital footprint of, ultimately, that's a that's a third party, rather than putting it on
their own blogs as well. So it's also important on just when you're working with a client or an
organization, what's the outcome? Organization, what's the outcome we're ultimately trying to
achieve?
Jack Murray 26:45
Very you know? Cheers. So let's do the rapid fire round a series of five questions. I gave you
these questions in advance, if you can be brief with your answers, and I'll do I'll do each of you
separately, and I'll go through the five questions. So I'll start with you. Fiona, what is one media
moment that has changed how you work.
Fiona O'Malley 27:04
I suppose, when I came back from London, I took a role at comms, role with the university
students in Ireland, and I remember I had this kind of mentor when I was in London, and she
said, obviously it's important to be proactive when it comes to the media, but it's equally as
important to be reactive. And at the time, Brexit was everywhere in the news. No one to talk
about no one wants to talk about anything apart from Brexit. So I went to the president of usr
at the time, and I said, we need to talk about Brexit and how it affects us. And he said, but for
doing students in Ireland, it won't affect us at all. So I was kind of, you know, baffled, but also
kind of saying, Well, A, we need to find a way that it's going to affect us. But B, it affects the
Erasmus programs. It affects our students going over to the UK and vice versa. So I suppose
really considering and appreciating the importance of reactive, looking at what's in the media
cycle, and trying to shoehorn your own angle and your own client into the story is
Jack Murray 28:04
important, and you're very good at that. Give me one example of something that failed that
you learned from
Fiona O'Malley 28:09
again, when I was working in London at a peer agency, there was one of our clients was waga
mama, and they came to us and they had their first draft of what they said was going to go out
in the press release, and the press release just read like an advert. It was wagon Mama was
every second or third word. And I said, it's way too heavily branded. It's not going to get any
coverage whatsoever, even in really small regionals. But they were insistent. We sent it out. It
got no media, as we predicted. And anyways, we had quite a disagreement with the client,
because they were very disappointed. We were like, we told you a nauseam this is way to
heavily branded. We sent it out again, and it was like, I think there was wager. Man was
mentioned three times throughout the press release, and it got really good coverage then, but
again, kind of not only just trusting your gut, but trusting your experience and not being led
down the path of you know, insistence, because, as we discussed earlier, not only you know it's
not going to land, but it will erode that relationship of trust that you've built up with
Jack Murray 29:12
the media. What's one universal belief about public relations that you think is wrong or
overstated?
Fiona O'Malley 29:17
Think it's overstated, that everyone will want an exclusive I don't think that's that's true, and I
think people are happy to cover the bulk of the press release, and if they want an exclusive,
they might come back and ask for it, or ask for a variation of the press release, or the case
study you've pitched them.
Jack Murray 29:32
Yeah, and sometimes a story has an energy and it benefits from the fact that more than one
person is talking about it and that it's out there. What is one piece of advice that you wish
you'd heard earlier in your career?
Fiona O'Malley 29:45
One piece of advice that I wish I heard earlier was not to sweat the small stuff. And what I mean
by that is sometimes you can obsess over every single detail that's going out and try to plan a
campaign. Down to the minute, but things don't work that way, particularly when you're
working nearly against or alongside an active news cycle. So you know, sometimes things, if
you think in your mind, they're really newsworthy, they're going to land really well. And if they
don't, you know, there's always the next campaign.
Jack Murray 30:18
And finally, what book do you think everyone in your job should read.
Fiona O'Malley 30:21
So I actually took a screenshot, because I can never remember the author's name was Donald
Miller, and it's building a story brand. Clarify your message so customers will listen. It's number
one Wall Street Journal bestseller, and it's pretty good. It kind of goes gives a good overview of
the life cycle of a brand and how to align a brand with the correct customers, but you can take
those learnings and align the brand to the correct journalists that will be interested in your
messaging and your story,
Jack Murray 30:50
okay, Stephen, I'll start with you and your on your five questions. What's one media moment
that has changed how you work?
Stephen Hopkins 30:58
Yeah, and it came a little bit actually later in my career, because I think when you and this is
probably the difference for difference for when you've worked in house and agency, you know,
you can, when you're working in house, you're ultimately, you know, you're the chief
spokesperson in lots of ways. And you can probably take some quite personally when
journalists are a certain way. And then I went over to agency, and it was particular journalists
very prominent during and, you know, particular issue with a certain client, and this had been
ongoing for months, and then another opportunity came, where a really good opportunity came
with another client, and you're having that thought, it's like, are you going to give it to that but
would it make sense to give it that journalist? There are prominent journalists in their field, and
I did give it to them, and because it was the right thing to do for the client, it was the right
thing for them to cover the story, and ultimately changed the dynamic of the relationship. And
what I realized there and then is, and it's to change my framing. Journalists have a job to do,
and you have a job to do, and just to remember that you know, in terms of, you know, not to
take it personally, probably as much at times you
Jack Murray 31:57
know the work. And I suppose, for good and for bad, the work can improve or disimprove the
relationship. So like how the flow of the work 100% give me one example of something that
failed, that you learned
Stephen Hopkins 32:06
from, yeah, big one for me, I had a very big project early on in my career. Very proud of this
project. It was, it looked at, kind of the corporate social responsibility of impact of a group of
companies, massive project, big investment. Was really excited by the stories that the
companies were doing, and I it was a wide strategic communications project, and it was my
early days, and I just realized, I didn't realize, that media was a different beast. And often
what's a really compelling story with the organizations you're working with isn't necessarily a
means media story. So it comes back to the news hook, ultimately. So you know, projects about
scale should have gotten media return and ultimately, different and isn't. And what I learned
then was that ultimately media, within the grand scheme of strategic communications and
corporate affairs, media is a different beast, because ultimately we're talking about the news,
and if you're not delivering a news story, why would they cover it? You know, yeah, and
Jack Murray 32:55
you have to be ruthless about the hook. You have to be ruthless, and you have to say, Look,
nobody cares. Like, like, I that's a phrase I use all the time, and someone say, Oh, we're
rebranding or new website. But nobody cares. Nobody cares. Nobody cares. What is one
universal belief about public relations you think is wrong or overstated?
Stephen Hopkins 33:14
Yeah, it probably won't surprise some people is that that kind of that peers, is all spin. It's not
about that. It's about refining the message for your organization. It's about helping your
organization hit their key audiences. You know, ultimately, it's it's about trying to present the
best case forward, ultimately, for your client or for your organization, and kind of build a
compelling, compelling narrative to hit
Jack Murray 33:37
your audiences. What's one bit of advice you'd wish you'd heard earlier in your career? Yeah, a
Stephen Hopkins 33:40
big one for me was, you know, was I used to think that, particularly when you work in the
regulatory in the policy landscape, which I spent most of my career in doing, you think you
need to be the expert on the policy right. And actually, what you're bringing to the to your
organization is that you understand the macro environment. So spend more time learning the
skill sets of how journalists work, what the context is, and feed that back into the business.
Because when something serious does happen to your organization, people think you're not
going to be the expert on X policy. What you will be the expert on is how you navigate the
media landscape or the communication strategy for that organization. So, you know, I often say
to younger people starting off in a career, develop the skill sets about the skill set about the
macro environment, and figure out how you feed that back into the business. And again, I think
when you've worked in agency, you figure that out a little bit more, because you're always
looking kind of out when you're in in house, you can be a little bit insular at times, and little bit
too much focused on what's happening in your organization.
Jack Murray 34:34
Yeah, and it's funny, agency, we very like working in a political party as well, in that, you know,
I described my time working in politics like an industrial level media relations, and that, like,
some days, we were sending out 10 press releases before lunchtime, and that was just a
muscle that we kept, rinse and repeat. And the funny thing is that, like, you'd have a big policy
that you'd hope you'd get a whole lot of coverage on, and then you'd go and the journalists
would be just obsessed about something else. It, and then another day, you'd have a crack off
someone on some policy, and you'd be on the 16 you'd be on the top three stories on six
o'clock news, and you'd have put zero effort into it, which is kind of funny. What book do you
think everyone in your job should read?
Stephen Hopkins 35:12
It's really funny. I was telling a former colleague of yours the book I was going to mention, and
they suggest, they said that you suggested this book, which is about how to win influence, or
how to win friends and influence by Dale, you might Carnegie. Carnegie, yeah, that's the
author. And I read the book years ago, and I've recommended it over the years as well to
people, because ultimately, I think anyone's starting off in their career, even if they're not in
the communication space, like you need to understand, ultimately, how you build relationships
and influence others, and regardless of what you do in an organization, that's such an
important skill, it really is. And like
Jack Murray 35:41
I used to say to people, like, when you when you go, when you when you go on, like when I
would arrange gigs, when I was in the cold face of PR and I'd always seek out the person I
didn't know, and I'd sit on the bus beside them, or make sure my, my flight, my if I was booking
the trip, that my seat on the plane was beside them. And I'd figure out, did they like, did they
like chapel Roan or Man United, or were they from Leitrim or Tipperary, and I would just try and
understand what made them tick and what way they were, and dealing with them was far
easier.
Stephen Hopkins 36:07
Then I'm going to slightly cheat and mention a podcast as well. It's another one I recommend
all the time, when it hits the fan, the BBC Four podcast, brilliant PR gurus have worked for
Director of comms from Manchester United that works in Windsor, built up your agency's
former journalists, and the thing that they do, which is really, really useful, they take what's
happening in the world and put it through a communications and PR lens. So it's really valuable
kind of learning, if you're kind of working in the world of PR and comms, and seeing current
events through that lens.
Jack Murray 36:35
Thank you, Stephen, thank you, Fiona, that was inside media relations. Thanks for joining us
today. Come back next time when we will be looking at some more tactics, some more tips,
some more strategy to help you get your story further faster to more people. Thanks for
listening. Thanks for watching.
