As journalists build direct relationships with their audiences and personal brands become more influential, the conversation examines what this shift means for media relations, storytelling and the future of news. Jack is joined by Richard Chambers, News Correspondent at Virgin Media News, to discuss audience building, creator journalism and the changing habits of news consumers; and Dylan Kerrigan, Senior Research Executive at MediaHQ, who shares how understanding regular media features can help PR professionals secure more consistent coverage.
Drawing on first-hand experience, the episode explores how journalists are rethinking content for digital platforms, why authenticity matters more than ever, and how PR teams can improve their pitching by understanding not just the journalist, but the format they're pitching into. It also looks at the opportunities created when media organisations and communications professionals embrace new ways of reaching audiences.
At the centre of the discussion is a simple question: if the news no longer waits for audiences to come to it, how should journalists and PR professionals rethink the way they create, package and share stories?
It's a practical look at audience-first journalism, smarter media pitching and the changing relationship between news, social media and public relations.
Transcript:
Jack Murray 00:00
Welcome to Inside Media Relations, the podcast for PR people, serious about getting their
stories covered. In this episode, The News Finds You: The Changing Rules of Audience Building. We're looking at one of the biggest shifts happening in journalism today. How audiences
discover news, and why journalists are building direct relationships with people through social
platforms. I'll be joined by Richard Chambers, news correspondent with Virgin Media News, to
explore how journalism is adapting to a world where attention is fragmented, audiences are
harder to reach, and reporters are becoming media brands in their own right. To start today,
I'm joined by Dylan Carr, again from the Media HQ research team, for another edition of Inside
Media Research, Dylan will share some fascinating new research into regular features in the
media, looking at where media outlets return to the same formats and what they can teach PR
professionals about generating coverage. Let's get Inside Media Relations, the Questions.
Welcome, Dylan. You've been researching regular features and adding all the details of your
research to Medi HQ. Regular features aren't really about stories first, they're about formats. I
think once you understand those formats as a PR person, you'll probably have greater success,
I suppose. Let's start at the start. What is a regular feature?
Dylan 01:26
Thanks, Jack. Yeah, I suppose this most simplistic definition of a regular feature is a piece of
content that happens consistently, follows the same format, and can have the same
contributors or different contributors, but the bottom line is the regular feature will always
follow the same format, no matter the guest, so that's that would be the most simplistic
definition, and in terms of the teams during my research of this, there's so many that can, like
for example, one from Diars Independent is my pet and me, that's a regular feature, where,
where someone is interviewed about how kind of their pet impacts their life, and then another
regular feature on the other side of things is like the debrief panel, newspaper panels, different
things like that, so that would be the most basic definition of the of the regular feature,
Jack Murray 02:18
so like you've looked at hundreds of these, I suppose. Have you seen any patterns or trends
across that of all of the stuff that you've looked at?
Dylan 02:25
Yeah, I suppose in terms of like outlets, they rely on these reoccurring formats, and anytime
you turn on the radio, you could, you could be listening to it in the background, but you're
listening to a regular segment that's on the show regularly. You, maybe you might, you might
know it or not, could be a specific interview, it could be a debate, it could be a panel, but yeah,
and they have the same structures, like each week, so it gives PR people a massive
opportunity, like if you can understand these formats, it will make pitching and getting a story
covered a lot, a lot easier,
Jack Murray 03:02
and sometimes, like, I often wonder, the opportunity that's lost is, and I see it with the stuff
that's shared by PR people on MediaHQ, people obsess about, you know, the creative hook and
getting the story out there, but that's just one part of it, really good PR people, you know, get
in, they do, they do the research, and they see well, what formats that are there already could I
fit this into, or could I shape this for a format.
Dylan 03:28
Yeah, like I've spoken to a lot of producers and editors who are working on these regular
features, and the one thing that surprised me is how specific they are. So, in terms of there's,
for example, there's a regular feature on Newstalk called the Executive Chair on one of their
business programs, so if you didn't know before pitching to that, if you wanted to get a
colleague or something on that, like the company needs to have a certain number of
employees, for example, to feature on that program, so like different things like that, but yeah,
no, it's so specific, like so one of the biggest mistakes PR people make is just doing one
outreach, for example, so or following one one kind of format in their outreach, so for example,
on the Brandon O'Connor show, two regular features is the newspaper panel, and then another
one is my life and five songs, so you can, you can think of like how different pitching someone
to the newspaper panel will be compared to pitching someone on my life and five songs. So one
is just more serious kind of news and current affairs, other is more human interest and
storytelling aspects or different things like that you need to take into consideration,
Jack Murray 04:46
and you notice too, like the two regular features I'm absolutely obsessed with. I'm a huge fan of
the Sunday Times, but in their Sunday Times magazine, they have a regular feature called
Relative Values, where they take two people who are related to one another and they talk
about. A relationship, and one of the things you notice in that is, you know, it's someone has a
new album coming out, or they have a new TV show, or they have a play coming up, and at the
end of it, it'll say, you know, John's play is on the Royal Theater, and then the other one at the
back of that magazine is called A Day in the Life, and someone tells you about their daily
routine, and they say, "Look, I get up and I have granola, and it goes everything from kind of
rock stars to people in their 90s, and just back to what you said there, like the regular feature,
which is a panel, like, so there's ones that you can, if you acquit yourself well, so if you take
something like the review of the week on the Today program on Radio One with David
McCullough, like if you're a good guest in that, you'll get asked back, and then some of them
are one hit and you're done, like you're only going to do my, you're not gonna be doing my
favorite pet every three weeks,
Dylan 05:53
exactly. Yeah, Jack, and it all come like there's so many differences in regular features, like for
example, so I'll give you a comparison between newspaper and broadcast. So one of my
favorite regular features, and my colleague Ben - we discuss this all the time - is my
supermarket, the supermarket taste test. Sorry, so that's in the end, though. So each week
they kind of, they take a certain number of brands, whether it could be like ketchup one week,
it could be yogurt another week, and then they'll do a review on that. So the way a PR person
would pitch to that, compared to a segment on Moncrief movies and booze, for example, it's
chalk and cheese, like, so it is one is more formal in, like, hard copy or whatever, just given info
about the different products, like, and then another, as I go back to again, is more human
interest and storytelling aspects. So, you need to take into consideration, like, if you're pitching
to, for example, movies and booze, is the person I'm pitching able to tell a good story, able to
put a bit of humor in it as well. So, and if
Jack Murray 06:55
you even take movie and movie and booze, like, you could have a low-budget film coming out,
or you could have a craft beer from North Longford, and if you can get, like, you know, 12
bottles of your craft beer into the hands of the producer and say, "Look, this is a crack in new
craft beer, and we think it should be on the slot, but you need to do the groundwork.
Dylan 07:15
Yeah, exactly, and, like, we've included now, so we've added over 60 regular features onto the
media HQ database, and I've gathered loads of insights from producers and people directly
working on these regular features, and the feature on the biography. So, we've, we've created
a pitch and tips section, so it gives.. we're not on.. we're not only providing our users with
contact details, we're giving them real insights into how they can get their story and picked up
and covered, or get someone featured on these features. So it's been a very enjoyable little
work, like I've really enjoyed doing it, and got great insight. And one thing I've noticed, as well,
from producers and people writing these features, they're crying out for people, and to
interview, like, there I was in touch with a certain person from, from the Indo-K, they were, they
were asking me for suggestions for entries and stuff like that, so like this is it's a bit of a missed
opportunity for PR people, like when people are crying out like if you know the format of the
feature and you can get your head around the team and create a good, good story, you'll have
a better chance of getting picked up, and due to us putting the pitch and tips on the
biographies, we're giving you the best chance to get your story covered,
Jack Murray 08:34
and I suppose from a PR point of view, from energy, like, keep that energy, that outbound
energy, creating your press releases and sending them out to people, but, but do the research,
dig in, and see where the other opportunities are for your spokespeople, for your brands, you,
for your products,
Dylan 08:47
exactly, and like, don't just pitch the journalist, pitch, pitch the format as well, and another
thing, as well, make sure you're pitching to the right person, I've, I've been in touch with, like,
people from the Brandon O'Connor show, and, like, it's great having individual producer names
as well, but they were explaining that, like, the production panel on the show could change
from week to week, so it's little things like I've included in bios, like make sure you include the
show email as well as pitching and individual producers, it's the best chance of getting stuff
picked up,
Jack Murray 09:21
thanks, Dylan. That's fascinating, and it gives loads of opportunities for people to get their
stories out there.
Dylan 09:25
Thanks, Jack.
Jack Murray 09:27
Richard Chambers is a news correspondent with Virgin Media News, and one of Ireland's best-
known journalists. Over his career, he has covered some of the biggest stories in Ireland and
abroad, reporting on politics, current affairs, and breaking news. More recently, Richard has
built one of the largest social media audiences of any Irish journalist, reaching millions of
people through platforms like Instagram and TikTok. Journalism has is always about finding
audiences, but what has changed is where those audiences are. Richard, you're very welcome
today.
Robert Chambers 09:55
Thanks for having me. Yeah,
Jack Murray 09:56
let's go back to an evening in February 2016 at. It was probably the first time we met, yeah.
You were relatively new in news talk, and we got the hospital pass of an exit poll on a general
election, and I think we were broadcasting at 10 o'clock, and it was the first time I'd met you,
and like we were all kind of giddy after an election campaign, and like, I got a sense pretty
quickly, this guy's serious about what he's at here. You're a favorite younger than me, but you
were, you're probably late 20s, early 30s, mid 20s,
Robert Chambers 10:31
mid 20s, mid 20s. Yeah, I kind of
Jack Murray 10:33
thought this is a fellow going somewhere, he's in here, and you definitely caught my attention
that night. That was the start of your broadcast career.
Robert Chambers 10:40
Yeah, I was in News Talk from, I was in today FM, first out of college, about 2011 say, so I was
around News Talk then for a while. I started doing, after doing like reporting out and about, and
news bulletins, got the chance to do some programs, and that was that, actually was people
still talk about that show that election night, because it's the first time anybody had done a sort
of a, an exit poll radio show in Irish on Irish broadcast media, and we got loads of news lines out
because the exit poll was so shocking. So it was just really interesting. It was a great spot to be
in to be able to put a show like that together, like on the fly. And it was very odd, was Michael
Ring ringing him up and asking him about whether or not he had confidence and end to Kenny
going forward, and all that sort of stuff. Like, there was great news lines out of it, yeah. And
then the idea was nicked, obviously, for every general election, but it just shows like..
Jack Murray 11:26
and did you see that maybe as a way like you weren't, you weren't long in the door there, that
it was.. it was probably one of the first presenting gigs you got in. It was,
Robert Chambers 11:34
yeah, yeah. And we did other ones as well. We did.. we were on.. we did a sort of similar thing
for the US election 2016 as well, and now we weren't, we didn't carry on through the night, and
it started off looking really decent for Hillary Clinton, based on the early data, with loads of
interviewees telling, telling us that she was definitely going to win, but, like, so we always did,
and there was a great team of young people, Newstalk, that's something I'll always say about
News Talk, and Bauer, and Communicor, as it was then, they had loads of young people in
researcher and producing roles, or gave them opportunities to do things, and interesting and
creative things, like we had a ball when we did, but it was
Jack Murray 12:10
there's never a case of embracing your constraints that, like, the money wasn't good, but you
know, there was a fader and a live, a live microphone, and a format in which you could learn
your craft, yeah, and it seemed to be a magnet for people who are hungry, people who wanted
to get on,
Robert Chambers 12:25
yeah, and some really, really great people have gone through there over the years, and just
even like you, even you talk behind the scenes researchers and producers, they have staffed
now RTEs, their whole takeover, the whole change that has happened in RT radio, a lot of that
is news talk people, and it is the creativity that you learn from being given the sort of space to
actually, you know, let's try somebody different, somebody I know might be a good talker. They
may not be necessarily the biggest name in comparison to some of the more like regular, you
know, featured panelists or contributors, but knowing somebody who'll be able to tell a good
story or would be able to inject a bit of color and a bit of juice into proceedings, and just even
mess around with, like, we added in musical stings and stuff like that. I think we played on
Noah Rock, because he obviously remembers infamously was a Hillary Clinton intern. We
played him on with the rock from WWE, Music, and bits of both. We just had the ball, and when
you don't
Jack Murray 13:11
have money, you have to be creative to do
Robert Chambers 13:13
something different, like, yeah, and that did stand to us. So, like, I mean, some of the stuff, and
the innovation, and just being creative that I learned that I had the chance to express myself
back then has 100% been part of my career since then,
Jack Murray 13:26
so let's go back to the start, and when I was researching today, your background is a bit like
Charlie, how he, you seem to have moved around a bit and hit very various counties, so started
in Clare, yeah, moved to Belfast, no, wrong way, okay, yeah,
Robert Chambers 13:40
born in Beth, I was born in Beth. Moved to Claire's, my mom, my brother to Clare in 94 which is
a very brilliant time to move to West Clare. Yeah, lived in a hinge, so also my earliest and most
vivid childhood memories at the Clair Hyrles in 1995 Yeah, so that was it. So we're there for
primary school, moved up to Russia in North Dublin, then,
Jack Murray 14:00
so you were complete with that, would she?
Richard Chambera 14:02
Yeah, like, I mean, even when you moved to Claire
Jack Murray 14:05
accent, yeah,
Robert Chambers 14:06
we, my mom always jokes that, like, when we came out of Belfast, we spoke very proven
proper, and then as soon as, like, within two or three weeks, and Claire, and this is something I
always have, is that I pick up accents very quickly, is that I was very, like, very West Clare, very
quick,
Jack Murray 14:20
absolutely tremendous. Yeah,
Robert Chambers 14:22
so that's that's something I do remember, but like, yeah, so we moved up to Russia in North
Dublin, early 2000s and yeah, been in Dublin ever since. So more than half of my life has been
in Dublin now, which feels weird.
Jack Murray 14:35
And you, you, you went to UCD to study law,
Robert Chambers 14:38
yeah, which is a complete disaster,
Jack Murray 14:40
yeah. And like, like, for someone who is creative, who likes ideas, the structure of law, how dry
it can be, the amount of reading, you're someone who's kind of high on adrenaline, who likes
moving around the place. I'd imagine that was a recipe for disaster.
Robert Chambers 14:54
It was a bit of a recipe, just it's one of those things where, like, if again, if you ask kids when
they're 17 and 16. Effectively, to pick what you want to be for the rest of your life, and when
you have, like, you're somebody who's going to get decent-ish points in the leaving cert, you're
kind of like, "Oh, I don't know, I have no idea, I'm just going to do law because that's what sort
of expected of you. Yeah, so that's what I did. And then going to UCD from Russia, North Dublin
is a hell of a slep, and you
Jack Murray 15:16
were, you were obviously living at home, yeah.
Robert Chambers 15:18
So, commute, and it was like it was early days of the recession, as well, so it was like it felt, it
felt bleak at times, so like all the lectures at 9o'clock I'll always remember getting trained like
six in the morning, yeah, and like not even direct trains, you get off in Pierre Street and you
walk around town to get a bus, it's just mad, so I was just wrecked by the time I got to college,
and then I just didn't assimilate into it, which is a problem that used to be a big problem in UCD
is that it can be quite an unforgiving place, or it could be. I should say it's changed a lot since
then for people who are outsiders, who weren't from, and you were in the class with people
who
Jack Murray 15:48
were from South County, Dublin, getting up at 10 to nine, and yeah, falling in and
Robert Chambers 15:52
in, and you're not living on campus, you don't have that connection as well. So it's tough that,
so like I, we did not say about three or four weeks, I kind of knew, oh, I'm in trouble here. This
isn't actually what I want to do, but because it was a three year program, the BC Allen, no, I
stuck it out. Yeah, which I think great, should
Jack Murray 16:08
great commitment
Robert Chambers 16:09
to. But then it came round to the third year, and I was like, geez, I need to find something else
to do. Yeah, and did you, and
Jack Murray 16:15
like, did you travel those summers, or what? Did you stay around,
Robert Chambers 16:17
interrailing, and stuff like that, which is, yeah, but like, so you
Jack Murray 16:20
came to the end of it, then, and you needed to think of a next step, and the journalism program
at DCU, there's two, like, there were, there are two, there's, there's TUD, as it is now, and DCU,
and you applied to the masters there,
Robert Chambers 16:38
yeah, got in there, I started, I sort of came into journalism through on UCD. I was working for
the college paper, doing like match reports and sport, because that's what I actually was like, if
I could find a great way into sports journey. Yeah, my life would be made, because it's my
number one passion is sport, and it was great. It started off really well there. Went into the
master's program, which was great. Like, I've met some of my best friends that I've
Jack Murray 17:00
often wondered about sports journalism, though. Like, I had a friend who got a brilliant job as a
soccer correspondent in his 20s, and he was a huge Leeds fan, and yeah, he went to be going
to Premier League games every Saturday, and he said he hated it. He said it turned the thing I
enjoy most into an absolute drudge. He said, fear
Robert Chambers 17:14
that is the fear I did have. Now, obviously, it's tough enough to get into the industry, but I felt
like if I love sport this much, and all of my waking hours outside of work or study are ingesting
and taking in sport.
Jack Murray 17:25
Yeah,
Robert Chambers 17:26
don't want to give, don't want to create my cynical version of myself or end up hating it. I'm
like, oh, I'm sick of these people, and these sporting icons that I love are absolutely like awful
people behind the scenes. And the funny thing is, you meet sports
Jack Murray 17:37
people sometimes, and some of the best sport people don't have a lot going on. No,
Robert Chambers 17:41
that could be tough interviews as well. Yeah, media training does kick in for those guys 100%
as well. So, who
Jack Murray 17:46
like sometimes when you look at back at it, who were the notables in your, in your masters in
DCU?
Robert Chambers 17:52
Kieran Cudahy, now an RTE, very much so. His couple years older than me, I was one of the
younger ones in the class that time. Again, I was such that I was 21 when I came out of that
class, which is very young still for us, and again to try and figure out what you want to do in a
career is tough. Other guys, Connor Barr, who's an editor of Morning Ireland, Joe Coffey as well,
who's working as a producer in two FM now, couple of other people who've now obviously not
everybody stays in the industry as well, Ralph Diallo, who's really, really good, just the soccer
podcast and RT, like those three guys, would be some of my closest friends still to this day. And
again, just really creative guys who are just, again, just as soon as you're given an opportunity
to do something like we made Team 33 myself, Raph, and Joe, when we were in News Talk, we
all ended up freelancing and interning in News Talk. We made Team 33 which is like a sort of
really off the wall sort of sports show, very
Jack Murray 18:43
subversive thing to do. I often wondered about that, because it existed where the Juggernaut
brand of off the ball was there, and then you had this kind of fringe nerd, real nerd, real nerdy
stuff. We
Robert Chambers 18:54
did one show where we actually, again, just because it was just mad creative, we were like,
we're gonna do, because it was all about football nostalgia, which is massive. Now we were well
ahead of that, like, you know, the way people spend like 300 quid now on retro jerseys. Yeah,
we were all over that beforehand. This is like 1215, years ago, even at this point. I have no long
idea long ago. We did a whole show as if we were doing the 9596 Premier League season,
yeah, as if it was in, like, in almost in character, like, you know, how Fergie will never win
anything with kids, and Newcastle have gone too far ahead, like they'll never be caught at this
point. This is mad, just really, really interesting, creative people. It's amazing, sort of see where
those guys have gone on to, like Team 33 ended up as a radio program.
Jack Murray 19:30
Yeah,
Robert Chambers 19:30
won the PPI for best sports show again, which is massive. We're just a hobby show, three lads,
and it was so
Jack Murray 19:36
inside baseball. It was kind of.. it was back to that thing of when I met you first in 2016 if you
give committed people who want to do good work an opportunity, yeah, that's kind of what
happens. It'll
Robert Chambers 19:47
pay dividends. Yeah, so that's something I think newsrooms and media organizations of any
kind need to be conscious of, especially when you have now more tools than ever before to be
creative and to let people express themselves and try new things,
Jack Murray 19:59
isn't it that. Like I did a po, I did the post-grad journalism in Indies, in DIT, as it was then, but
isn't that one of the big challenges? Then you're 21 you come out to DCU, you mentioned about
four of the notables in your class, but then like it is kind of like doing the Grand National, where
all these fences are put in front of you, then you have to kind of try and break into the industry,
and that, that can be like that, can that burns off so many people at that point, where the next
big jump comes, and people want to do it, but they don't want it as much as some people, and
they just, they give up, and they do other
Robert Chambers 20:30
things, and it can be, it's a gritty road as well, sometimes, like I remember, I did, I was
freelancing as a sub editor in the Star for a long time, while I was waiting for a job to sort of pop
up again, hopefully in broadcasting, like I freelanced into AFM, or I'd interned, I should say,
sorry, as part of the master's program, there wasn't any freelance shifts available for a good
few months after that, so I was basically like, what can I do now? This was in the Daily Star, so
better than like writing the headlines and stuff, enjoyed it from a creative point of view,
because it kept like a certain part of your brain working, but again, long slept from Rush, and
wasn't already sort of filling me with joy, but like I knew that if I wanted to really make this
happen journalism wise, like I needed to be at least somewhat in the industry, I needed to be,
need to be like need to be able to subside to live and pay my own bills and stuff, but yeah, like
you will have awful jobs along the way, and it is often a case of determination. It's great luck as
well that opportunities did arrive, like if the opportunity to work freelance for Today FM and
News Talk didn't arrive when it did. Like, I could well have just been on the plus, like, well, what
am I going to do? I've a fairly sub-level law degree from from UCD, and a couple of shifts in the
Star. I mean, what do I do after this? And
Jack Murray 21:40
was there a point where, like, as misaligned as you felt doing law in UCD when you got into
DCU to do the journalism, did you get a feeling pretty quickly? Okay, yeah, for me,
Robert Chambers 21:52
I loved it. Loved it. Anything to do with, you know, even web design and publication design. I
just love all aspects of the media. I was just loving it. It was great to work with people who like
the same interests as you, which I didn't really feel I had in law as well. These are people who
are very similar personality types, I think, are attracted to journalism sometimes. I was just like,
"Wow, it's amazing. It's meant to happen. Oh no, and that was like doing it for three years or
that other place. Yeah, I
Jack Murray 22:16
had the same feeling, because I had done a business degree, and when I arrived into the post
grad course in Dit, like I can remember being in there, and Andrew Lynch, who's still in, and
Patrick Frayne were in my class, and a woman called Fiona McCann, who's in America and still
in journalism, but I can, I can remember looking around and think I'm in the right place. Yeah,
these
Robert Chambers 22:36
are people who I can vibe with, and it was
Jack Murray 22:38
so like the excitement of kind of everybody working on their CV, everybody hustling, everybody
looking for an angle, so you got into, you got into news talk, and I suppose that's when your
voice started being heard, and you know, you started kind of building your broadcast
reputation. Just tell us a little bit about that break. Yeah, it was, it was great
Robert Chambers 23:00
out and about reporting, sort of one main news reporter, then for News Talk, I would have done
a lot of social media at the time, as well, Twitter, as it was back in the day, I would have been, I
would have had my own voice on that, I think that was fairly instantly notable, I would have had
a lot of followers through there, but again, I think just being available, I think was really good,
then for as a news reporter traveling around the country doing stories, I worked down on the
Pack Kenny show for a while as sort of a more features and as the main program reporter there
and sort of work alongside Pack Kenny in that sort of sense was amazing, like you learn so
much from this doyen of broadcasting and these had the chance to do something a lot longer
form, like if you're doing reports for news bulletins it's often you're getting a clip of 15 seconds
of, yeah, script, and you might do a voice, which might be a minute, maybe, but to be able to
sit in the studio with Pat Kenny and talk to a 20 minute report and different clips, and what you
found along the way, amazing.
Jack Murray 23:53
What was the biggest thing you learned from Pat Kenny?
Robert Chambers 23:56
I just think he was, he was very much like, I think he very much was of the opinion that you,
you can sort of put on this sort of fake personality, like be yourself, be funny at times, like be
honest about things, just be human. I think, which is really important, because I feel I think
some people get into media and they feel they have to turn into robots, and they have to be,
you know, fit inside this template of being just straight, and we all have to talk the exact same
way, and we all have to. Every report has to have the same sort of scripts, you saw. You see all
these lines and phrases and turns of phrases, which appear time and time again. They become
cliche, where he was just like, 'Speak yourself, and just like, 'I'll ask you off the wall questions
on different things. Like, you might have an idea of where we're sitting in studio having this
conversation about what you learned looking into the housing crisis in Galway, or whatever,
and I might ask these left to field questions just completely off the wall, and they might like,
and it was just, I think it taught me as well not to let things throw you as well, like if you were
getting like Pat Kenny is an encyclopedia in his mind, so research, and he's asking about, like,
you know, like commercial rates and goals, I haven't a clue about all this stuff, I'm just gonna
have to like digital. Turn on your feet, yeah, and also teach you just to do your research,
because he's going to throw stuff at you, and you don't want to be caught,
Jack Murray 25:05
yeah,
Robert Chambers 25:06
by Pac Kenny on the fly live on news talk, you know. So it's great, he's amazing to work on.
Jack Murray 25:10
So you make the transition to TV, and let's fast forward to the pandemic, and you know, we're
in February, March 2020 you, that was just before you, you made the switch, and then the
pandemic comes. We're all locked down. There's only one show in town, it's in government
buildings. There's a press briefing afternoon every day. Tell me about the switch to Virgin
Media, and what began to happen then, you and Sarah King, in particular, became focal points
for sharing that news, and what you learned about journalism in that, and what you learned
about about telling the story in that moment,
Robert Chambers 25:54
really tough. It was above any other time in career. It felt like being in a goldfish bowl, because,
as you say, this was the only thing people were watching, and people who had never engaged
with news, I think, before had no other option but to tune in at 530 for the news at 530 or to
look in online, and it was really just a complete pressure cooker of a situation. What's I learned
along the way? I mean, I think you learn a lot more about if people, and you have this huge
audience of people across different ages, different demographics, and they are all really hungry
for information, not just about their loved ones who might be sick or work in hospitals, but
about their businesses, about their livelihoods. They don't know what they're going to be doing
from one end of the week to the other, because everything that they thought was cemented in
their life has been flipped up in the air, so you learn to take on questions from other people,
you learn very quickly what other people's, what people's frustrations are, what people are
talking about on the ground outside of the bubble, really. And it was a real bubble, because I
mean, nobody else is around city center, the street where we're on was completely deserted
for 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and just being able to sort of take on feedback, and just
being the audience's person in the room, rather than being this sort of, I don't know, lad in a
suit who's just telling you the official line, that's very important. At what point in it did you
realize, oh, like journalistically, or the transaction between you and the audience? Okay, this is
different, I haven't felt this before, like you know this is more important, or like more people are
tuning in and getting more of a reaction here. When did you realize that? I think it was brilliant,
the first in the first two months of it, I think when it was just really after like Leo's speech in
Washington, and the first lockdown, and that like it was very instantaneous that this was okay.
This is going to be the definitive thing probably any of us will ever cover, and it feels like we've
actually put it into a complete bottle. We've left it behind over the last five or six years that we
don't talk about it at all very quickly. I just knew, just based on what was getting online, just the
reality of our lived situation day to day, like all the shops are closed, all that sort of stuff. I
mean, you knew quickly that this was something that was very different. People were just all
over everything. They were all over everything, and it was.. they were obsessed about the daily
press conference in the Department of Health. People were trying to learn, like epidemiology on
the fly, and people were looking and doing their own charts and stuff. It was just.. it's just an
insane period. I think it was difficult at that time because Ireland is such a small country, and
we have such a small media sector, and being someone who is.. I think I was quite relatable,
which is probably why people gravitated towards people like myself and Zara, that we didn't
seem, you know, quite buttoned up, and there was a lot of personality what we did online, then,
in terms of on Twitter and on Instagram a little bit at the time,
Jack Murray 28:44
and did that start to build in? Like Twitter was math,
Robert Chambers 28:47
Twitter has always been massive for me, back from when I started, and I was like, sort of had
had a clear voice, and it was clearly had a clear identity, and I was a lot of like my own stuff
and my own personality came across, and things in COVID, that was, I think, people just noticed
it a lot more, like I didn't change what I did really online, I put out a lot more stuff and covered
a lot more broader areas, because that was the nature of what a pandemic does to a country,
but I just think I was kind of myself for a lot of this, but it's a huge amount of stress and
pressure, pressure, it was really difficult, and then to try to write a book in the middle of all that
as well, trying to sum up the whole experience of the country during that time was probably too
much for one person to do,
Jack Murray 29:22
and you were living in a house with four journalists,
Robert Chambers 29:24
yeah. So we were all in house share in Castle Lock, and great at the time, but like again, you
probably have no escape from the situation that you're all in. But it was great, we had, we were
amazing supports, and like friends to each other all the way through that, which was amazing.
But I wouldn't, I wouldn't go back anywhere near anything like that, ever, and it's just so, so
intense.
Jack Murray 29:45
So, talk to me, and like you've been sharing news on social for quite a while, and you said you
know in early on Twitter, and that worked really well, and you know it's well documented, and
we all know where Twitter has gone, or X is X. Says it is now the switch. Tell me a bit about the
switch to TikTok and Instagram, and then that conscious choice that you've made to, like, really
look at it as, as a channel, as a way of communicating, as a way of connecting, as a way of
building an audience. Yeah,
Robert Chambers 30:18
I think I'd done TikToks and Instagram video, we bits on and off, but not in a sort of refocused
way. Since around then the pandemic, I moved off Twitter over the years for various reasons,
mostly because it just isn't - it isn't useful, and it isn't useful as a, as a site for media
organizations. I feel personally, in terms of where traction comes from, the way people now
have consumed news has changed, so over the last few months I've been like, okay, I need to
be where people are, and Deborah Turner, who's the former head of BBC News, she put up very
well recently, she's like, look, the news business is changing, people want their news from
people, people want people who they can relate to, people they understand, people that they
trust, people who speak like they speak, to give them the news, rather than, you know,
something which can be quite static or quite linear. So, that is something. So, she has her way
of looking, I think she has the sort of the creator journalism thing, is probably the biggest shake
up to the industry that we've seen since the internet, and I'd probably go along and agree with
her on that. So, I've been trying to deliver more focused things for people, giving it straight up
whether the pieces to camera sort of bits are more lengthy, explained, considered pieces to
have a longer shelf life on things like, I don't know, Gaza, the housing crisis, things like that,
across those two platforms, particularly on Instagram, and it's just, yeah, it's paid off. People do
appreciate it. I think you can sort of, you can sort of express again. It's all about expression, like
I've had to learn a bazillion different things, which I've not mastered at all yet, in terms of
editing and camera angles and stuff like that. But, like, it has been really rewarding, because
this is where people are going. I've recently done a couple of talks for people like The Guardian,
like their journalists, who are like, they've seen what I'm doing over here, and like, okay, this is
really good, this guy, we should probably try and figure out how we can get our own journalists
to do it as well, so that, like, that's proof that something's working anyway, but I think, yeah,
it's hard to, like, it's hard to sort of, if you're somebody else trying to do this, or if you're a
company looking at this and saying, well, how do we do this sort of thing? If this is where
people are going to get their news from, how do we do that? You can't really transplant a
company into an individual, but you can sort of give individuals, I suppose, the space or the
tools to do this sort of thing. So, you have, like, I think CNN has tried to do this recently, they're
having a look at this, and they're like, okay, we'll have our individual journalists, and they were
treating them as their own creators, but we'll have basically, we're stable for them, let them do
their thing, we can re-transplant their stuff, and we can re-share and re-collaborate with all
their bits and bobs, and it's in our interest to have these guys in under us while letting them do
their own thing as well.
Jack Murray 32:57
So, I just want to read you a post from LinkedIn that you put up
Robert Chambers 33:02
this is dangerous. Everything is not great.
Jack Murray 33:06
Posted here a few months back about putting a concerted effort into Instagram as my prime
social media focus for journalism. It's going pretty well. What I've learned is to know what your
audience wants, be authentic to your strong suits, and that any down talking about what topics
and issues do well online is mostly bunkum. Treat your audience as clued in, engaged adults,
they are that they are, and be human
Robert Chambers 33:31
100% But it's true, actually, like, because I think there was a time in news and media, in
particular, when news, in particular, I would say, where you look at videos and social media
content, and you treat it as this dumbed-down, almost childlike thing, and it's like it's like that
concept, even like the word explainer - we all use that, we do explainers on. I find that a bit, it's
Jack Murray 33:54
a
Robert Chambers 33:55
bit naff, yeah, it's like the concept of on the internet of explaining things like I'm five, and
there's there's a value to that, but for the most part, if you look at and you get, you have your
analytics on Instagram and TikTok, you can see what age your audience are like. Treat them as
very clued, and they're looking at your account and they're following newsy topics. That's
where the algorithm has put this video in front of
Jack Murray 34:14
them.
Robert Chambers 34:14
They're interested in it. They have a level of knowledge already, but you can explain in depth
things around that.
Jack Murray 34:20
I have a 19 year old, and yeah, she said, 'Oh, News Chambers. Yeah, yeah, I see. I see him on
TikTok. She said,
Robert Chambers 34:25
'But like that, I think it's important. You have to understand that people who are watching your
stuff, they're really hungry for deeper level of intro of knowledge on things. They want analysis,
they don't want just headline facts. X person said, you know, I mean, yeah, you need to have a
little bit more of it. You have to add value, I think that's the main thing.
Jack Murray 34:43
So, I want to explore three separate areas. I'll start with I want to talk about personal
motivation, I want to talk about kind of editorial guidance and control, and I want to just talk
about structure of posts. I suppose just on personal motivation first. I have a friend who's a
who's a TV journal. Journalist, and he said, like, on the bad days, he said, I pull my hair out and
think, Who's fucking watching this stuff? And like, why am I doing this? Who's watching this
stuff? And I would imagine that when you're locked in, like, if you were locked into 530 on a
terrestrial channel, you could feel like that, but I can see where you know if it's multichannel
and that you've ways of reaching other people, and you're not just stuck on the dial that that
sort of engagement is really important.
Robert Chambers 35:25
Yeah, I think it is. I think, as well, because journalists are just naturally creative people that do
the same thing every single day. It doesn't get the creative uses slowing in the same way. Like,
it's great, and I adore my job, and it's brilliant that Virgin Media have allowed me to create and
express myself in this way online as well, but I think you need to, like, I sort of, when I had this
sort of switch, where I'm like putting up this post, saying, "Look, I've made this effort, I want to
do this, because I think this is where people are going, and this is important if we're to build
trust with people online and news in general. That I wanted to sort of just, I needed to put a
plan in, how much am I putting out every week. There's no point in me doing one video per
week, and then just going off, and then three weeks later I'll do another one. Like, you have to
be like, okay, what can I explain this week? What do people need to know that's not getting
elsewhere? And stuff on international relations and international affairs, I think, is something
which is very important to do. People can feel like they have no control over situations, and
they want things to be explained in plain terms, things on Sudan, Gaza stuff at home, in terms
of fuel crisis, data centers, energy consumption, all this stuff, which is, is real, like it's real
heady stuff, it can be very pointy headed and very chin strokey stuff at the best of times, so to
be able to bring that to a ground level for people, so
Jack Murray 36:40
you have an editorial calendar yourself outside of what your markings are on a weekly list.
Yeah,
Robert Chambers 36:45
yeah, I'll know. I need to put up two or three, four things, maybe per week, okay, to keep things
ticking over, and just to, like, just to keep up with the news, because it's just so much
happening.
Jack Murray 36:54
So talk to me about news editors, about new schedules, about the Virgin Media brand, about
your personal brand, about the tensions, so like I can see how this is good for Virgin Media. I
can also see how it's good for your personal brand. You, you know, you're commissioned by
them, they give you your markings for the terrestrial TV. How does that kind of work as a, as a,
I suppose, an ongoing energy field between you and them? And deciding it's great,
Robert Chambers 37:19
and we have like loads of new opportunities for people to create and express themselves
online. We've done doing a lot more social only video now these days, as well, shot on phone to
be consumed on phones, as opposed to like back when I suppose we started doing video bits
online, and we started posting just like the VT that went out in the 1230 to 530 news in full. We
just lumped that up on Facebook or on Twitter or on Instagram. Now we have it a bit more
considered, because that's what people want. So I think that's not attention, that's actually just
like we are. I'm contributing to that in sort of our series, like things like Truth Matters, which are
sort of our main misinformation and disinformation, and sort of getting people to think about
things differently. That's really good. And then, but everybody needs to hurt their own sort of
platform and channel as well, which again drives people towards Virgin Media. Like, people will
see people who will see my bits and bobs online will turn into Virgin Media on TV, or they'll
follow Virgin Media on the internet as well to see what.. Oh, Jesus, this guy's really good. I like
what this guy is doing. What are his colleagues? Is he got more colleagues who are doing this
sort of thing? So,
Jack Murray 38:20
you have like three strands to your work, then you have the social, you've the socials for Virgin,
you have your own socials, and then you have the terrestrial TV,
Robert Chambers 38:29
exactly, yeah, and they're all, they are all super important, like the product of TV, like people
don't, people don't differentiate these things anymore, if you see, like, we're lucky in Ireland
that our terrestrial television audience for news is so strong in comparison to what's happening
elsewhere in Europe, or it's happening in the States as well. We are really, really blessed to
have that, but people don't just say, "I'm going to just watch the TV, or "I'm just going to watch
the social, I'm going to watch YouTube. People just consume, they're just like, "I need to see
what they're watching on their phone, their laptop, or on apps on their TV as well, so like you
can't treat it as a differentiated thing, like they're all different strands, as you're sort of saying,
but like it's all the same thing.
Jack Murray 39:08
So let's get a little bit nerdy, just on content and on form, and like I was looking at some of your
content before we started today, and like a very sharp edge is important, like a good intro is
important. You use subtitles very well, you use, you know, title cards very well. Just tell us what
you've learned about kind of structure and shape of obviously, you know, if you don't have
good content, you can, you can dress it up, whatever you want. Please look
Robert Chambers 39:36
good, because I suppose you're the thing is, this is one thing I have learned, is that you are
competing against businesses, you're competing against legacy organizations, organizations
who have, I don't know, 1000 staff around the world. You are in competition with them,
because they're going to look for this information from either yourself or from a company or
from any other journalist around the world. Like, it isn't just like I can't just say, "Oh, I'll never
compete with. The Guardian, or the New York Times, or RTE, or whatever, you need to be able
to like have confidence, but you have to also treat your audience with a bit of professional
respect. So, you'll need to learn up new skills, like things like Canva, like Cap Caught, or Reels,
the app for Instagram, sort of editing and shooting and teleprompter, sort of thing. That's really
good, so it needs to look polished to a certain degree. Now, people will appreciate a level of
rough around the edges, particularly if you're a journalist yourself, and it also makes it kind of a
bit more relatable sometimes that it isn't just this pristine, sheen, glossy thing, which should
see on TV, because if that's what they wanted, they'd be watching it on TV, like, you know, they
want people who look like them, like I will often be in casual clothes, sitting in a sun trap in the
back garden, recording these, because I think that's important. If you have, like, it will get
people to stop, people, even whoever might have watched me on TV for years. Like, she says,
"Your man on TV, what's he doing in his backyard? And wearing shorts, or whatever, like, you
know, like that's important. It gets people to stop, and they might consider, like, to stick around
for maybe two or three seconds longer than they otherwise will do
Jack Murray 41:00
script, do script things
Robert Chambers 41:02
generally. I would have an outline, because you need to like things need to fit into social media,
and like you can. There's no point in shooting a five minutes of a of an explainer on, I don't
know, quantitative ease. You need to, it needs to be digestible, it needs to be smart, needs to
adjustable. You have to order things in an obviously level of importance, but it's all have
sometimes have a script and a teleprompter, sometimes I'll just be off on the fly. I think that's
did you use an
Jack Murray 41:27
iPad for teleprompter? No, I would
Robert Chambers 41:29
just on the phone, I would just have again the Edits app on Instagram is good for that, and
there's other ones as well, people have used over the years, they're all to do the same thing, so
like having a couple of notes, so I generally wouldn't have a full script. Yeah, because I don't
think that's good. I don't think it's good. And what starts
Jack Murray 41:46
with a big clear point or a question, or
Robert Chambers 41:48
yeah, I'll have little bullet points on the teleprompter, so that'll scroll down and I'm like, well,
here I can talk about this point, or this point, this point. Like, you'll see on a lot of reels that
journalists do, or any other sort of creators, like there'll be sharp edits in the middle of it. That's
fine, like you don't need to be,
Jack Murray 42:02
it's not Hollywood, yeah, it's
Robert Chambers 42:03
not Hollywood, and like stopping to regather your thoughts or to write what's next point I need
to make here can be important because you have, you have a limited amount of time, you have
people on the hook for like getting your best stuff as quickly as possible, the
Jack Murray 42:16
conclave, the Zelensky visit were two big pieces in your content, do they stand out like more
than any other?
Robert Chambers 42:26
Yeah, I guess so. The landscape, and again, that's why, like, this is a thing, like you need to find
different angles and bits. So one of the things I'd noticed, I like from looking at, I've been to the
Conclave in Rome in 2013 or 14, some of the first big stories ever done. I've been obsessed
with the conclave ever since, and the way the Italian media is obsessed with the conclave, and
the way that the Italian culture gravitates around the papacy. So, when the conclave sort of
process was all kicking off, there's a fanta fanta fantapapa, is what it was called. So, it's
basically fantasy football, a fantasy conclave thing. I was like, I need to get on this. I need to
explain this. People loved it early. I ended up doing a piece on it as well, and all that sort of
stuff. So, just to be able to find different angles with a little bit of color, because it can't all be
serious, serious, serious, serious, serious all the way. The US, the visit to the US statistics visit
again, giving people a bit of behind the scenes can always work online as well. Like, I was in the
James Esper, the briefing room in the White House, to give people a bit of a tour around there.
Explain that it used to be a swimming pool, just a little behind the scenes facts they wouldn't
get elsewhere. But you need to have, like, you can't do all that. I don't think. I don't think you
can just do here's all the behind the scenes stuff, because then it's not really journalism at this
point. If it's just all of that sort of stuff, yeah, you need to be able to, like, it's important to show
people behind the scenes that you're a real person and keep people interested, because people
are obsessed with what happens if the scientists behind the scenes, or how things work, but
you need to keep on pointing them back towards end product. Really,
Jack Murray 43:49
you deal with a lot of PR people, you deal with press advisors for departments, for ministers, for
companies, all
Robert Chambers 43:56
very healthy relationships, the good, the bad, like
Jack Murray 44:00
doorsteps, press conferences, you know, you spend your life in kind of media formats, insights
on what's great, what's not great, like tensions, what, what works really well, what, when the
relationship with PR people is really good, what's it like, and when there's tension, what, like,
what would you change?
Robert Chambers 44:18
I think, I think for PR people, I think you need to, like, you have to understand that what works
for stories most often is people, so it's all well and good pitching. Richard, would you come and
cover this thing? We have a launch, and it's about it's about the housing crisis, and we have
spokesperson, spokesperson, spokesperson, or professor, professor. I'm like, the findings will
be really good, and that's important, that we get the findings out there, but it's hard to get
people you know interested in the biggest social issue of our time, unless they can see people
they can relate to in it. So, I think that finding case studies, people who are ordinary people
that you can put into this, or if it's a good story. I like, I know there's.. I've had good links with
the Matter Hospital over the years since I wrote about them in my book. Like, they're always
really good at finding excellent stories of just like ordinary people of extraordinary lives,
transplant people, all that sort of stuff. Who, and they just put them forward there. It's really,
really good. It's just so clear, and it just speaks to the volumes and the values of the matter
hospital and the family and the community around there, like that's just a great example.
They're so good at that, at finding people who you know can express what good work goes on
in our health service, because otherwise you just hear bad story, bad story, bad story, and
that's natural, because that's what that is, what's newsworthy. But sometimes you need to be
able to say, if there is a good human story, like, make that the focus, because that's what will
get attention, whether it's audiences, never mind newsrooms, and journalists, and media
organizations. Like, you need to give people people to look at. You
Jack Murray 45:52
have a lot of adrenaline in your life, you have a lot of pressure. I know you're a huge running
fan, just that way of kind of staying fit, staying alert, staying mentally grounded, minding
yourself. Just talk a little, a little bit about that, because when there's a lot of, you know, the
industry and the work can be attritional, and it's, you know, about kind of keeping in tune with
yourself. Yeah,
Robert Chambers 46:12
and it's such an.. it's an industry that is.. it's a magnet for obsessives, like you.. you probably
won't have a long, long career, unless you're over obsessed with the workings of the industry,
politics, society, all that sort of stuff, but you need to have downtime, you need to have
boundaries, and you need to have downtime. Those two things are non-negotiables, really. So
you need to be able to switch off as best you can. So you need to have something, whether
that's a hobby, whether that's reading, some sort of physical activity is great as well. Running
has been amazing for me, more so as just something fun to do rather than anything else. We've
Jack Murray 46:47
run a couple of maritals,
Robert Chambers 46:49
I've done four now, yeah, which is great. None this year now, just because I decided I need a
year off, but it's amazing. It's just great, and it's just again, it gives you a sense of community
and something outside of the world of work, because again, journalists are very prone to just
being friends with other journalists and people in the sort of the brighter bubble, which isn't
great, like, so it's brilliant to, like, I've made great friends out of running, and just again, just a
sense of, you know, being part of something which is uniquely your own as well. I think that's
important to have something that this is separate to the nine to five, and well, the five to nine, I
suppose it follows on from it as well. So it is really important
Jack Murray 47:23
to finish off the rapid fire round five quick questions, five quick answers. Question number one,
what is the one media moment that has changed how you work?
Robert Chambers 47:33
I would say, yeah, I would say the pandemic, it did the amount of growing up that you will do in
that situation, like in terms of experience, perspective, 100% of that.
Jack Murray 47:46
Number two, give me one example of something that failed that you learned from.
Robert Chambers 47:49
I think there's tons of, you could pick up a zillion examples, but I always get annoyed because,
again, this is something for PR people as well. I have an inbox of literally 1000s of emails when
you miss something really good, or somebody sent in a news tip that turned into something,
and you've missed it, just by no fault other than just sheer volume like that. Will always.. I'm
like, ah, if it only had my phone on that one minute, I could have had an absolutely banger of a
story. And that's happened a few times. But yeah,
Jack Murray 48:16
what universe.. what one universal belief about public relations do you think is wrong or
overstated?
Robert Chambers 48:23
I think the idea that everything is spin and it's this cozy world. I think there is a lot of that, and
that's perception that the industry needs to shake, so that I think it's not true of everybody, and
it's certainly not true of most people I know who are journalists and wider NPR, that this is some
sort of cozy thing, we're all like scratching each other's backs and stuff. I think that that's
something which isn't true.
Jack Murray 48:46
Number four, what is one piece of advice that you'd wish you'd had earlier in your career?
Robert Chambers 48:51
I would say the boundaries thing, and having stuff outside of work, because again, I wouldn't
have gotten where I am, not to say that I'm at some sort of peak of any sort of mountain of a
career, but I wouldn't be as happy as I am at working as hard as I am in this career without
being determined and obsessive about it, but I think just in terms of overall healthiness you
need to have space outside and have good people outside in your life as well.
Jack Murray 49:15
And the last question, the rapid fire round, what book do you think everyone in your job should
read?
Robert Chambers 49:19
I think people in my job should read more fiction in general. I think we're all obsessed with
doing all these books, and Robert Carr was Power Broker, and all that sort of stuff. Like Patrick
Rodden Keefe, in terms of actual non-fiction, he just writes better than any journalist ever does,
because it reads like a novel. Anything else, like, I mean, the bee sting recently, brilliant. Like,
you need to understand, like you, if you're in the industry of journalism, you need to
understand the culture and everything outside there. If we're just reading books about politics,
or just reading books about economy, economics, or biographies of journalists, waste of time,
it's wasted time. You need to know something a bit more colorful, a little bit more life in it.
Jack Murray 49:58
Thank you for joining me today, that. Fascinating insight, Jack.
Robert Chambers 50:01
Pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
Jack Murray 50:03
Thanks for listening and watching today. If you liked the show, please like us and follow us, and
we look forward to you coming back the next time when we get more inside media relations.
